What oil for autowinder?

[Lc130]

Hi All Merry Christmas

I'm a beginner with an ETA 2789.  What oil is used for autowinder wheels (reduction, winding wheels).  I have 9010 and 9104.

Thank you

Charlie

[Nucejoe]

Happy Christmas, 9010 rings a bell, more imporatant is epilame treatment of reversers.

[JohnR725]

They have a special lubricant just for this Lubeta V105.

https://www.esslinger.com/eta-lubeta-v105-and-v106-lubricants-for-reversing-wheels-and-ball-bearings/

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/eta-lubeta-v105

[jdm]

If what worries you is the reverser wheels, bathi g them  in a solution of 2% of 9010 in petroleum ether works well. All the rest use HP 1300 and 9010 for tre bearing.

IMHO, there is no need for a beginner to spend more.

 

 

[Knebo]

Good morning/afternoon/evening!

I'm about to service my first automatic movement and was looking through the various posts regarding lubrication. Specifically, I'm working on an Omega cal 552 (@jdm : I read your service walkthrough! Thanks!)

Just two questions:

- before doing the Lubeta v105 or 9010-petroleum mix treatment, should you also use Epilame? (I have Epilame already, so there's no cost-saving question)

- Lubeta v106 is for "oscillating weight ball bearings and springs". But the Omega cal 552 has a "pinion bearing" (is that the correct term)... so would Lubeta v106 still be the right lubricant? Or is 9010 not only an alternative, but actually more appropriate?

Thanks!

[rossjackson01]

I use 9010 for the gems. D5 for the all rotating parts. Molikote DX for heavy wearing parts (Stem and keyless works). Got this information from Marks course. Purchased each from ebay at about £6 for the bottle. Been using them for 19 month (doesn't look like I even used any). Only thing I need to purchase now is breaking grease.

 

[JohnR725]

47 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

I use 9010 for the gems. D5 for the all rotating parts. Molikote DX for heavy wearing parts (Stem and keyless works). Got this information from Marks course. Purchased each from ebay at about £6 for the bottle. Been using them for 19 month (doesn't look like I even used any). Only thing I need to purchase now is breaking grease.

the problem with your answer is it doesn't answer the question. maybe to understand the question better let's look at what needs to be lubricated

I assume that this is the part should like to lubricate?

Then the reality is you asking a whole bunch of lubrication questions but let's look at this one first.

then for this part of Omega has recommendations

I have Omega's recommendations notice the first is if you can disassemble. Sometimes you can disassemble with out the specialized tools but most the time there too tight together and it's not coming apart. Which means you don't want to risk breaking it so you leave it together but it ideally should be cleaned and then it needs to be lubricated. So Omega has the second recommendation which means you need to read a specific paragraph in working instruction number 40.

this then brings up a problem technical documentation like anything from Omega. You would have to find somebody with a Swatch group account then whoever that person is has to have access at a specific level. So some people may have access to a Swatch group where they can look up things but they will have zero technical access. So you have to find somebody at the very specific level that has the right access. Then whoever download stuff from Swatch group typically the documentation on every single page is watermarked with who downloaded it Swatch group is very paranoid over who sees their documentation. That kind of paranoia makes people nervous who has access. But fortunately at least for a little while some of the documentation was available to the general public like at the link below.

so this is a search on cousins website for working instructions then Omega has way more than this now but you do get  number 40 which have also gone ahead and attached to this discussion but while you're here on the link you can download everything else.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=working

 

once you get number 40 you go to the section where it explains how to lubricate. On the next page it does cover how to mix up the lubricant if you don't have this.

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

Lubeta v106 is for "oscillating weight ball bearings and springs". But the Omega cal 552 has a "pinion bearing" (is that the correct term)... so would Lubeta v106 still be the right lubricant? Or is 9010 not only an alternative, but actually more appropriate?

then this brings up another problem. the other problem would be lack of technical documentation followed by if you do have access the technical documentation the documentation will change with time. For instance if you had access to a newer working instruction 40 they drop mixing up your own V105 because it can be purchased in small quantities premixed. then they might even revise the entire section like the image below they highlight everything was revised so this is newer than whatever cousins has.

 

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

Lubeta v106 is for "oscillating weight ball bearings and springs". But the Omega cal 552 has a "pinion bearing" (is that the correct term)... so would Lubeta v106 still be the right lubricant? Or is 9010 not only an alternative, but actually more appropriate?

this then presents a problem. As far as I can tell Omega's recommending 9010. If you look at working instruction number 40 when it list what 9010 is used for it lists that. then farther into the document they do cover lubrication a ball bearing assemblies but strangely enough they do not include V106? It's conceivable that the documentation is too old perhaps

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

should you also use Epilame?

this then brings up a problem. We discussed epilam before basically are going to use it in a place where you like insanely thin oils to stay in place for instance anywhere were use 9010 should have epilam. Anyplace that insane watch companies are using superthin lubricants like on the keyless works where they should be using grease which doesn't run away.

then let's look at the epilam problem I'm attaching a document from 1957. Fortunately I scanned it so there's no watermarks on the pages to hide. Sexy a really nice  document on cleaning a watch and it does cover epilam. Notice practically the entire watch with a few minor exceptions. Which brings up a problem typically if he asked too many questions people will say fall with the manufacturer recommends. But typically at least until modern times they don't list all the documentation for servicing a watch typically you never see mention of epilam until you get something relatively modern even though they been using it for years.

the amusement with vintage by the way is the things that they don't treat like the pallet fork. also that they treat the balance pivots and that's not just Omega as far as I can tell everybody does balance pivots which is not mentioned almost anywhere.

now let's move farther into the future. I copied and pasted and italicized. Number one the jewel assembly is epilam at the factory with a special process that we can't do. But they do recommend the cap  jewels. Number two is what everybody typically  does pallet stones. Which is what you would see if you are looking at page 13. Number three is interesting if you worked at Swatch group they replace the entire barrel assembly. But they do have a working instruction on how to recycle the barrel and for that you see the recommendation below you do not epilam the mainspring.

 

*1 Do not treat the shock-absorber settings with epilam; the cap jewels should however be treated.

*2 Steep only the two gathering pallets in epilame (see page 13)!
*3 Do not treat the complete barrels with epilam, only the drums, covers and arbours.

then brings up a problem modern aggressive cleaning machines. So now they have a new recommendation for gently Omega and/or Swatch group has infinitely deep pockets so they can go through a lot of epilam and purchase it in huge quantities. So with the modern aggressive cleaning machine all that epilam that they been applying through years gets washed off. So the recommendation is the last char the cleaning machine with only a couple of components that come out.

 

then we need another image to see what you're not supposed to epilam

 

 

 

 

Oiling Omega watches 1957.PDF

[rossjackson01]

the problem with your answer is it doesn't answer the question. maybe to understand the question better let's look at what needs to be lubricated

John. Not often you are wrong. But, you are right again.

[mikepilk]

I have just finished an ETA 2783 (same movement)

Here is what ETA recommend for the 2836, which has the same type of automatic mechanism.
(I've attached the Tech Sheet for the 2836 which shows lubrication - you can use it as a guide for your movement).

I put the reverser wheels through the cleaner (despite is saying not to clean them), then lube with a mix of naphtha/9010  (100:3) as shown below. 

DO NOT over oil the reverser wheels - it makes winding hard. When they wear it also makes winding more difficult, and they are not easy parts to find these days. 

 

 

 

ETA_2836-2.Asembly and Lube.pdf

[Knebo]

Thank you so much @JohnR725, @mikepilk and @rossjackson01

Incredibly helpful.

I also came across this nice walkthrough: https://adventuresinamateurwatchfettling.com/2019/05/05/omega-seamaster-de-ville/?unapproved=17986&moderation-hash=487a050f84228684fa1130218187621e#comment-17986

If I correctly understand your inputs and also go by the approach in the link, one option would be to wash the winding/reversing wheel in it's fully assembled state and then submerge in Lubeta v105 / 100:3 self-mix for lubrication. That seems very convenient.... 

I am right or misunderstanding?

Of course, not as good as disassembling it, but better than breaking something without the correct tool.

 

I also found the Omega 551 service manual. The lubrication of the automatic block is described as in the image below. Do I read correctly that I'm supposed to oil the winding wheel TEETH!? 

It says Synta-Visco-Lube, i.e. Moebius 9020, for everything. ... but since I only have 9010 and HP 1300, any suggestions which to use?

For the "gib of rotor in a piece of elder-pith moistened with oil". For the latter, I might use Lubeta v106 (submerge).

[mikepilk]

38 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Thank you so much @JohnR725, @mikepilk and @rossjackson01

Incredibly helpful.

I also came across this nice walkthrough: https://adventuresinamateurwatchfettling.com/2019/05/05/omega-seamaster-de-ville/?unapproved=17986&moderation-hash=487a050f84228684fa1130218187621e#comment-17986

I'm confused. I thought you were asking about an ETA, or is it an Omega?

It looks like you can disassemble the Omega reversers, but I doubt you could do that with the ETA ones.

 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

I'm confused. I thought you were asking about an ETA, or is it an Omega?

It looks like you can disassemble the Omega reversers, but I doubt you could do that with the ETA ones.

actually nice of you to say that because I was confused with your answer and now I'm confused with some other stuff let's see what we can do to analyze our confusion.

On 12/25/2020 at 11:03 AM, Lc130 said:

I'm a beginner with an ETA 2789.  What oil is used for autowinder wheels (reduction, winding wheels).  I have 9010 and 9104

okay so this discussion were currently answering question  a beginner who's working on a ETA 2789. We get answers and we notice the discussion is from 2020. That looks all well and good except our confusion starts with this

On 7/4/2023 at 4:17 AM, Knebo said:

I'm about to service my first automatic movement and was looking through the various posts regarding lubrication. Specifically, I'm working on an Omega cal 552 (@jdm : I read your service walkthrough! Thanks!)

as you can see it's a new discussion. Just a reminder for all of you are reading this I regard each watch as an individual watch and this really should have been a new discussion as it's now considered in my mind a discussion hijacking were taking the discussion in a new direction. this unfortunately has consequences of?

On 7/5/2023 at 8:24 AM, mikepilk said:

have just finished an ETA 2783 (same movement)

then I will explain things that slightly different order which the answers were given and/or asked @mikepilk gives his answer he's working on something similar this is what he did and by the way your answer was really confusing to me because oh wait you are answering the question the question of the title the question a discussion so you did outstanding but your answer was confusing of what were currently discussing as we been hijacked.

Discussion hijacking starts with this

On 7/4/2023 at 4:17 AM, Knebo said:

I'm about to service my first automatic movement and was looking through the various posts regarding lubrication. Specifically, I'm working on an Omega cal 552 (@jdm : I read your service walkthrough! Thanks!)

so we find out that now were discussing an Omega a very specific omega not what the title of this discussion says then I get confused with my answer because of other confusions we have lots a confusions in this discussion by the way

3 hours ago, Knebo said:

f I correctly understand your inputs and also go by the approach in the link, one option would be to wash the winding/reversing wheel in it's fully assembled state and then submerge in Lubeta v105 / 100:3 self-mix for lubrication. That seems very convenient.... 

I am right or misunderstanding?

Of course, not as good as disassembling it, but better than breaking something without the correct tool.

okay should we go the convenient method or should we do the Of course, not as good as disassembling it, but better than breaking something without the correct tool.

just a reminder of a problem technical information what year was your service manual printed? Is it possible unlikely of course prison possible that they revise the information? For instance watch companies have a whole bunch of background information typically you'd never see it for variety of reasons. First we go to various sites and download service males often times you don't actually get the service information because the material house websites have information for hearts with bonus servicing. So a lot of the background information has nothing to do with parts sort of and typically they do not exist plus Omega for reasons outlined above doesn't typically give out their information which leads to all kinds of problems of well like this problem

so for instance did you know Omega has a document called General information for Calibre 550, 551, 552, 560, 561, 562, 563,564, 565, 750, 751 and 752 ? Some of the stuff I have above came from that and I deliberately skipped over the section because I thought it worked I disassembled but okay let's go with disassembling a better method as you stated except it's a waste of time.

So first off if you purchase the part brand-new it comes prelubricated you don't have to do anything unless of course and there's a revision down there typically things are highlighted a revisions if it's an old one you'll have to get a newer one at a course you buy it off eBay knows when it was made there is that problem.

Okay oh and I supposed to keep you happy this document came out in 2019 it's newer than yours.

okay as you stated the better method of disassembly they show how to disassemble it they show how to reassemble it and how dear lubrication takes you exactly back to where I gave you before the new method they don't lubricate the way the manual used to say they lubricate with V105 exactly what I showed above. So basically there's no reason to disassemble unless for some reason you want to try to replace a component which you can't because you can't get the individual components anyway.

4 hours ago, Knebo said:

I also found the Omega 551 service manual. The lubrication of the automatic block is described as in the image below. Do I read correctly that I'm supposed to oil the winding wheel TEETH!? 

It says Synta-Visco-Lube, i.e. Moebius 9020, for everything. ... but since I only have 9010 and HP 1300, any suggestions which to use?

For the "gib of rotor in a piece of elder-pith moistened with oil". For the latter, I might use Lubeta v106 (submerge).

this brings up a problem. If you had access to Swatch group like I once did not anymore then you would find that there's the general instruction which is interesting that it even exists. Because basically a 500 series is vintage and they have almost nothing. They do have a nice shiny colorful parts list but no servicing. My guess is servicing has to go back to Switzerland which is why we don't have a service guide that I have attached the service guide which is basically a reprint of what you have and we know it's modern because it says Swatch group.

Then lubrication it doesn't actually say what the lubricate with. So PDF page 11 covers the lubrication 9010 would be to light 9020 would be better but as yet the HP I would use the HP. Probably if we go back the number 40 which are not going to do you find that there's a lighter version of HP that they're using but as you have a choice of incredibly light and much heavier I would go with the HP and just not worry about it.

So hopefully all the questions a been answered now.  in the future if your watch differs from whatever the discussion is a be best to start a new discussion because one thing people will see that you're discussing this versus the original title and more likely other people might give you an answer may be perhaps I'll I see these things because I always ask for new messages and I'm not looking at titles typically.

 

 

 

 

omega 551.pdf

[Knebo]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hijack or confuse.

I thought that the title ("What oil for autowinder?") of the topic was general enough to discuss various movements/automatic winders; as to learn about commonalities and differences. And I thought it was frowned upon to open new topics when a suitable topic already exists. Just to explain my thinking...

But I acknowledge that @Lc130 started the discussion about the ETA 2783 and I therefore caused confusion. So, my apologies.

 

@JohnR725 many thanks again for your elaborate answers and the attached documentation. I learn a lot! And despite @mikepilk referring to another movement, I still find it interesting, thanks!

Only thing left on my mind, if I may, is the oiling of the "TEETH of the large/small wheel of winding wheel" as indicated in the screenshot below. Or was this also overruled by newer documentation? Or am I simply misunderstanding the drawing or the text? I this is further hijacking, feel free to ignore. I won't take offense.

6 hours ago, Knebo said:

I also found the Omega 551 service manual. The lubrication of the automatic block is described as in the image below. Do I read correctly that I'm supposed to oil the winding wheel TEETH!? 

 

[rossjackson01]

John. I have to say, I really do find your answers very interesting. I struggle many times to put the questions correctly, but you do have a knack of covering most of the elements that may be required. Thank you.

Ross

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hijack or confuse.

I thought that the title ("What oil for autowinder?") of the topic was general enough to discuss various movements/automatic winders; as to learn about commonalities and differences. And I thought it was frowned upon to open new topics when a suitable topic already exists. Just to explain my thinking..

yes the discussion group has a problem. For instance one of the other unofficial moderators yes a moderator but not always listed as one loved things in boxes. So every time somebody and start a new discussion it end up in existing box of literally hundreds of pages making it basically worthless. Then the entire message board you got reorganized into thousands of little categories. How cam exaggerating a little bit but it's why I typically look for new messages. I used to come and look at the watch repair section only and look for discussions that had low quantities of answers and I would see how I could contribute. But I don't even typically try that any marks is just too many categories

oh and don't worry about browser hijacking it occurs all of the time now but if you're looking for answers to specific problems it's best to have a title that reflects your question so other people will see the discussion. So in other words if somebody use the I will go to this category and I don't care about this title they won't respond to your question here because of no idea what were discussing anyway

44 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

I have to say, I really do find your answers very interesting. I struggle many times to put the questions correctly, but you do have a knack of covering most of the elements that may be required.

as long as interesting as valuable and you could make some sort of sense out of it were okay. I suspect my answers are too long on multiple occasions and then the details fall through the cracks.

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

Only thing left on my mind, if I may, is the oiling of the "TEETH of the large/small wheel of winding wheel" as indicated in the screenshot below. Or was this also overruled by newer documentation? Or am I simply misunderstanding the drawing or the text? I this is further hijacking, feel free to ignore. I won't take offense.

I thought I answered that up above? It's sort of covered. In your original documentation actually list and oil but in the later Swatch group document that I attached any go to the particular section they don't list the oil at least they don't think they do but they do say to lubricate. And as our choices are 9010 and HP 1300 I believe I was supposed to have up above I would use the HP oil. My suspicion is a vagal back the schedule for the they do have I think a lighter HP oil may be like 500 is the lightest will they have which from casual memory I think is twice as heavy as the 9020. But you need the oil it with something and HP oil will work fine.

 

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

thought I answered that up above? It's sort of covered. In your original documentation actually list and oil but in the later Swatch group document that I attached any go to the particular section they don't list the oil at least they don't think they do but they do say to lubricate. And as our choices are 9010 and HP 1300 I believe I was supposed to have up above I would use the HP oil. My suspicion is a vagal back the schedule for the they do have I think a lighter HP oil may be like 500 is the lightest will they have which from casual memory I think is twice as heavy as the 9020. But you need the oil it with something and HP oil will work fine.

Hi @JohnR725, yes of course I read that already above. But I think you are elaborating on WHICH OIL. But my question is about WHERE to put it.

The documentation says on the "TEETH of the large/small wheel of winding wheel". Is it true that I should lubricate the TEETH? That would be a first to me. Normally, it's only the pivots/jewels. 

Am I making the question clearer now? 

 

 

[JohnR725]

6 minutes ago, Knebo said:

yes of course I read that already above. But I think you are elaborating on WHICH OIL. But my question is about WHERE to put it.

The documentation says on the "TEETH of the large/small wheel of winding wheel". Is it true that I should lubricate the TEETH? That would be a first to me. Normally, it's only the pivots/jewels. 

Am I making the question clearer now? 

super clarifications I love that and I'm running out the door I'm late to go someplace I'm just to give you an answer fast hopefully it's readable

 

yes normally oil the pivots and I assume you oil the pivots here I never really looked at the. In some circumstances gear teeth themselves do get lubricated. No we never get from the watch companies why things are done but yes some things are lubricated as they specify lubrication on the teeth that's  where the lubrication should go. unfortunately closed my PDF and I don't feel like snipping out yours right now so yes I believe it says two of the gears need to be lubricated on the teeth themselves in addition to whatever it said for the pivots so yes you did read correctly probably don't put too much though you don't want spreading all over the universe

 

 

[JohnFrum]

From a document shared previously by JohnR725

8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication.pdf

here is the lubrication guide that JohnR725 shared previously.

By comparison,  Lubricating (with S6 grease) the teeth of the second reduction wheel in the Seiko magic lever winding system 

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by JohnFrum