Waltham repair (clean n lube)

[Tudor]

So, I thought this was going to be a repair. And maybe I’ll need a mainspring when it’s said and done, but so far it’s just petrified green oil/grease everywhere that’s made a mess. I had to pry off the train bridge because the pinion of one of the train was glued to the main plate with the other end glued to the bridge. I thought I missed something and it was hanging up, but it’s just old oil. 
 

The last guy was particularly liberal with the stuff around the keyless works. I tore that down, cleaned and re-lubed that. Works (a lot better) than before, which was not really at all. 
 

Making good progress but I had to call it for the night. Some pictures to chew on: (the barrel close up shows the green goo nicely)

 

[KarlvonKoln]

That is a lovely movement!   Lovely watch as a whole.

[Tudor]

Thanks! It was my grandfather’s and I also have a matching smaller one that was my grandmother’s. 
 

I also have a Hamilton, which was also his, which was fixed up in the 90’s and still working well. I want to get these going and see how they run. 

[Michael1962]

6 hours ago, KarlvonKoln said:

That is a lovely movement!   Lovely watch as a whole.

I thought exactly that the first time I saw it.

[Tudor]

There are a couple pictures of the barrel because I thought it was nice they decorated both sides even though it is completely hidden from view in the movement. 

On the other hand, they did cut some corners by not polishing all the edges of the bridges...

Hopefully I can get right back to this and finish it up. 

[Nucejoe]

What cleaner solution are you using?  no cover on your trays. 

 

[Tudor]

Ronsinol mostly. That's what's in the tray. I soak the parts a while and then rinse with clean stuff from the bottle over the tray. Plenty of chunky bits of crud in the tray!

The hands, and a couple other small bits I used the one-dip on. I have not done anything with the balance wheel or cock yet. It seems the spring can be adjusted for length at the attachment point (does not appear to be a typical anchor that goes in at one spot only), so I'm not terribly inclined to mess with that. I may end up dipping the whole thing assembled and go from there, to avoid fiddling with the (beautiful looking) hairspring. Or, just clean the pivots and re-oil since the spring looks quite clean and the coils look to be laying perfectly as well.

I don't have a working ultrasonic at home right now; and there are too many bits to bring it into work for cleaning. As long as I can fully clean the jewels and other bits (and it seems to be working well), I'll stick with this. I also have a small stiff brush for the stubborn areas. I could bring each bridge and corresponding parts in as "batches" but I don't think that's necessary.

I may bring the case in however, to deal with the stem. It does not move very much from setting to winding and I think it should move more. I have applied a couple drops of oil to loosen it up (hopefully) and then I'll clean it out and see what's going on. It's all black with ancient grease (I assume) so I can't see anything right now.

[Nucejoe]

Rosinol sounds a generic chemical name, not brand name I suppose.

Is it a pharmaceutical item?

Thanks for sharring.

[Tudor]

Brand name- lighter fluid.

[firebynight]

Really sweet movement! What size is this movement? Do you know the year?

Did you need to do a tear down of the Hamilton as well? Photo?

Inheriting my grandfather's watches is also what initially got me into vintage watches. But I wasn't inclined at the time to learn how to restore them. But maybe I'll go back to them now.

 

[Tudor]

I don't know the official size. Big. You can see the dial in my hand in the first picture for scale.

I'm used to smaller stuff, but that turned out to be a good thing as I got into the keyless works on this one, which is quite small.

[Tudor]

Got a little more done tonight. Took the barrel apart for cleaning. I couldn’t figure out how the damn thing worked. Once I removed the glue-like petrified grease, I figured it out. Cleaned the spring and all the pieces and added fresh oil and reassembled. Works nice and smooth with my fingers now. 
 

then some more general cleaning after pulling the pallet fork bridge and pallet fork. It is interesting that this has adjustable banking pins. Not looking forward to the end stones. They are secured with screws and that gives plenty of opportunities to make a mess of the oil...

(that green stuff is the old oil/grease)

 

 

[KarlvonKoln]

I can't wait to see pics of this movement all cleaned and polished up.  It'll be stunning!  

"Adjustable banking pins" you say.  I can't say I've encountered them yet.  If you could get close-up pics of those too, I would love to take a peek.

Edited September 17, 2020 by KarlvonKoln
Edited for clarity

[Tudor]

On the dial side of the main plate, the bottom of the pins are visible. They have been cut at 90 degrees to give two slots. They can rotate in their bores and the pin is off center. I will not be messing with that either unless the Timegrapher demands intervention. 
 

Im hoping to get back to this tonight. Stay tuned...

Edited September 17, 2020 by Tudor

[Tudor]

So, I got the escapement and going train in. Also the refurbished barrel. 

Train bridge, pallet bridge in; barrel bridge not in. 

train wheels were nasty. Whatever this oil was, don’t use it. It’s like glue and soaking in lighter fluid just makes it angry. 
 

 

[Tudor]

And we have ignition!

It didn’t want to run. Seemed like no power was coming from the mainspring, so nudging the balance wheel it’d just rock until it ran out of juice. 
 

Eventually it worked in enough to start running but amplitude seems poor. I (presumably) have it running overnight. I’ll check in the morning and see it it’s still running. I’m hoping that sitting dormant for 40, if not more, years just needs to be worked out. Small victory for tonight.  Watching the video it looks like about 90 degrees...

Edited September 20, 2020 by Tudor

[Tudor]

Well, I never got back to it that first night, but last night I wound it and it started running without my help. So that’s good. 
 

threw it on the machine tonight and I got a baseline on it: +109 sec/day. Suboptimal. 
 

Figured I’d regulate it down and check it in the morning: +3 sec/day seems good. I’ll just wind it and check it in the morning (or evening more likely): it went up to +22 sec/day and I can’t retard this thing any more without surgery (and I’m the last guy you want messing with a screw compensated balance wheel)

So, I ask the group: how do I slow this thing down in the least invasive manner? And, if I should screw with the screws, backing them out would slow the rate, correct? (Like a skater: pull in to speed up; expand out to slow down) I did notice two screws have been backed out with the rest remaining “in”. My concern is changing amplitude (which looks ok now) as well as going “too far”. 
 

I believe the correct thing(s) to do are to poise the wheel and then start making adjustments. That’s well out of my comfort zone. But I’m willing to try stuff...

[yankeedog]

+22 seconds a day?  Call it a day. I wouldn't risk destroying anything over that.

[Tudor]

Actually, I had a thought. 
 

Is the beat rate 18000 on this movement? The Timegrapher selected that automatically, so I’m wondering if it’s showing fast, fully retarded, because it’s locked onto the incorrect rate?I don’t know- just throwing that out there...

I don’t have any specs on this movement. Lift angle might be different too but most are 42 degrees. 
 

Then there’s the banking pins, but since the lines are straight I think they are fine. Anything there?

[nichod]

On 9/14/2020 at 1:48 PM, firebynight said:

Really sweet movement! What size is this movement? Do you know the year?

 

 

If I see the serial correctly, is a 16 Size from about 1912.  Nice!

[Tudor]

I think it’s good that I can’t dwell on this continually. It gives me tome to think about things- a fresh perspective. 
 

So, it seems to be running fast, right? Well, as-tested, it did not have the canon pinion installed, and I think that “drag” may slow down the movement a bit. 
 

So perhaps later tonight, I’ll text that theory...

[KarlvonKoln]

That one should be 18,000 BPH.  And a 42 degree lift angle should be good.  Of all the pocket watches I've worked on, only my Longines had a lift angle of 50, but it has a funky kind of counter-balanced English lever.  I figure you'd notice if the hairspring looked sticky, and demagnetize it, so I'm hoping it's just your timegrapher's automatic setting that's misleading you. Then again, it could also need the slight added drag of the canon pinion to bring it down to normal.  Might be all those things. I'd double-check all the variables and try the timegrapher again if it were me.

Edited September 26, 2020 by KarlvonKoln
Typo

[Tudor]

I’m choking down some gourmet chili from a can now. After (assuming I survive), I’ll head to the dungeon and see what sort of mayhem I can unleash. 
 

Ive also got my SKX007J on the mat. The hands were never set correctly (not exactly overlapping at midnight) and it bugs me. I might end up tearing it down for fun, but it seems to run fine otherwise. 

[Tudor]

Ok, so, adding the cannon pinion did seem to tame it somewhat. First check it was over 100 sec/day slow so that was good. 
 

Dialed it in pretty nicely and then checked other positions... not so good. Dial down it’s about 30 sec/d fast and dial up us about 30 sec/day slow. That’s where I left it tonight. I don’t know what to do for such huge positional error other than what I did- tune for the average and live with it. 
 

I’ll probably case it up tomorrow, although I need to look at the stem for possible overhaul. 

[rodabod]

I would aim to get that amplitude much higher if you can. Check that the depth of look doesn’t look excessive and adjust the banking “pins” if need be.