Adhesive for a Dial Project?

[dpn]

Hi all,

I'm getting really close to manufacturing my first run of custom dials. I'm not ready to share a lot of details yet, but I would sincerely appreciate some advice on adhesives.

My dials will be featuring a 0.25 mm height steel chapter ring attached directly to the top of the dial material.

I'm certainly not planning anything stupid like using cyanoacrylate glue to bond the chapter rings to the dials.

I'm hoping for something low viscosity that can be applied carefully and will take a bit of time to set before curing. I'm looking for low viscosity because of the tight tolerances involved; height matters a lot here. I'm hoping for something that will be at least a little bit malleable, as I will need to align the chapter rings manually before they set and cure. (I really, really wish I could build some feet into the chapter rings and put them into alignment holes on the dial, but that's not possible for reasons that will become apparent once I disclose the dial material. I will need to align the chapter rings based on the stem location and with the aide of a spare crystal-less case that has an indexed bezel I'll be fixing in place.)

Right now, I'm looking at GS Crystal Hypo Cement as the best potential adhesive. It should give me 10-15 seconds of manipulation before it sets, and I hope that I can use a small enough quantity in a few key places to keep the chapter ring secure and as flush as possible to the dial surface.

Another alternative would be a two-part epoxy that I've thinned with alcohol or acetone. Since I don't need a hugely strong bond, the fact that solvent will weaken the epoxy isn't a huge concern. Thinning the epoxy with solvent would also extend its curing time, and I really don't want to have to try to hold down the chapter ring in perfect alignment by hand for an extended period of time before it sets.

Please let me know what the best way to proceed here would be. Specific brand recommendations are especially appreciated. Of course I can practice, but due to the cost and difficulty of prepping the dial materials, I'd prefer to minimize losing materials here and to get my process right quickly.

Thanks in advance for any advice,

Dan

(I've been documenting my research, design, and manufacturing steps to date and will be sharing information about my project when I am closer to the finish. This has been a fascinating journey into horology, lapidary, woodworking, CAD, and laser cutting for me.)

[WatchMaker]

Sounds intriguing and interesting ... will be interested to see your design soon!

From your description I'd put forward something like HMG's Jewellers Cement. Despite the advertised time to be fully dry it goes off quicker than that and should grab the chapter ring sufficiently without holding for ages. It allows a lot of control and dries clear.

And having used the word 'grab' you could also consider something like Unibond's 'No More Nails' Invisible. A smear of this should be enough and you could dilute to something runnier if you needed to. That probably appeals more to me than messing with epoxy that is not as easy to clear off if it starts oozing out over your lovely dial. Until dry you can easily wipe off this kind of adhesive with a wet cloth or cotton bud.

I know you've discounted cyanoacrylate but it sounds like it could still be a consideration. You can get slower drying varieties and it is brittle. Where I'm going with the latter is that you could put, say, four strategic small dots to safely secure the chapter ring but if you need to remove you could prise vertically upwards which should snap a small cyanoacrylate bond; something other adhesives like epoxy would not permit.

[Tudor]

I have used G-S with good success in the past to attach chapter rings (which had alignment pins) as well as re-attach applied indicies. The latter had proper pins at one time but not enough left to swage them onto the dial. They provided location and a tiny drop of G-S held them fine. 

It's a bit "rubbery" too so fits that criteria. It gets harder/stronger with time so don't get scared stuff is wiggling around. Fixture it and let it cure fully overnight before you pass judgement on the stuff.

Also, assuming the chapter ring is something you can machine (unlike the dial it seems) you could add a small trench (shallow o-ring groove) on the underside which would contain the excessive adhesive rather than having it "squeeze out" onto the dial. Relief slots on the OD (where it will be hidden) will give it a path. Then you could use a jeweler's epoxy, although I doubt you need anything near as strong as that. A texture (fine grit blast) on the underside of the chapter ring will also ensure it will be bomb-proof.

[dpn]

Fantastic advice, thank you both!

My first attempt is going to be with G-S. Depending on those results, I may try alternatives -- I've got a jewelers epoxy lined up, and I'm planning on heating the reagents before mixing to thin them down significantly. If that's not enough, I'll thin them with alcohol.

I want enough time to work, but I don't want something that's going to need to be "braced" in place to stay set. This is another mark in favor of G-S.

It looks like HMG's Jewellers Cement is a UK product -- from its description, it sounds like G-S is a good equivalent.

[dpn]

... and here's a teaser shot of some of the materials I'm using for the dials. I've got some intimate time planned with a Buehler IsoMet 1000 Precision Cutter soon, which is when I'll know whether this multi-month project is ultimately going to "work" or not.

 

[WatchMaker]

Ooh ... that'll be very nice looking (and unique!). Love the bright colours and wavy lines. Looking forward to seeing the finished example(s)! 

I've never got on that well with the GS stuff as I found it too jelly/rubbery like. But @Tudor specifically mentions this property and, crucially, has prior experience of it working and good advice. So good luck.

On a tangent I had to recently put up a big mirror in the bathroom at home with a friend. I mean big in that it covers one wall. Dubious that the tube of mirror adhesive that was supplied would hold something so heavy and big up but it does. That mirror isn't coming down any time soon. Some of these modern adhesives are incredible... 

[dpn]

Yeah, my primary material is called "Fordite" -- it's actual industrial waste, in that it comprises hundreds of layers of automotive paint overspray that have been repeatedly heat cured. It's good stuff to work with. I can't wait to share results -- everything turns on whether I can successfully cut 0.2mm thick discs of it that can be mounted on half-height brass dials. I've got all of my fingers and toes crossed that the Buehler precision cutter will do the trick. My archaeologist colleague uses the Buehler to cut 100 micron-thick sections of bone and teeth for microscopic examination, so I'm hoping that 200 micron-slices of Fordite are achievable. This slicer is gravity fed and very low rpm -- it's explicitly designed for precision cuts of delicate materials for laboratory purposes. If I didn't have access to the Buehler, this project would have been a pipe dream.

[BrianB]

If it can be done that machine seems like the machine that could do it. Good luck. I bet those slices will polish up beautifully once you glue them to the brass blanks.

[KOwatch]

Cool idea, the blocks remind me little of a crop of various Vialux day-date dials I've seen on ebay that I've been meaning to work into a project sometime.

 

[Tudor]

That’s a good saw but if it’s using a diamond wheel that will probably get loaded up and possibly ruined!

I would think a standard metal blade (similar to an old jeweler’s saw) would cut it fine. 

[WatchMaker]

I did look at the Buehler out of interest but like all nice precision stuff this ain't cheap ... don't mess up those blades! 

Thinking out loud I wonder how a hot-wire cutter (e.g. as used to cut acrylic / plexiglass) would fare too...?