Omega Seamaster Cosmic 1969 cannon pinion tightning?

[Purra]

I'm positive it should be mounted on the cannon pinion. I have the feeling I got the right cannon pinion but there is just no friction between the staff and the pinion. If not please tell me. 

So, if i wanted to tighten it where do I tighten it, on the place in the picture?

[ITProDad]

I'm positive it should be mounted on the cannon pinion. I have the feeling I got the right cannon pinion but there is just no friction between the staff and the pinion. If not please tell me. 
So, if i wanted to tighten it where do I tighten it, on the place in the picture?

Gently and small steps.


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[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, Purra said:

Here are the pics of the canon pinion before tightening. Thanks for the clear instructions. 

So my best shot is now cleaning the tube and tightening the cannon pinion I guess.

IMGur: https://imgur.com/a/hvGAlEg

 

Pic are clear, I am old.

[Purra]

I will do that, I hope I learned a lot from my first attempt . By the way, thank you guys so much for helping me with this.

[ITProDad]

I will do that, I hope I learned a lot from my first attempt . By the way, thank you guys so much for helping me with this.
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Like Daddy used to say, “advise is worth what you pay for it. It will be your success or our failure! Good luck!!


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[Nucejoe]

8 minutes ago, Purra said:

I'm positive it should be mounted on the cannon pinion. I have the feeling I got the right cannon pinion but there is just no friction between the staff and the pinion. If not please tell me. 

So, if i wanted to tighten it where do I tighten it, on the place in the picture?

Yes right where you show, the arrow.

[Purra]

That means i'm learning allready! Thank you, I will try it tonight. I've bought a pair of nailclippers and are going to file away a gap.

[watchweasol]

Hi   I think we are missing something here, the cannon pinion is driven from the adjacent wheel and once fitted the HOUR WHEEL fits over the cannon pinion and engages the smaller gear on the same gear onto which the canon pinion engages.  The cannon is free fitting on the 4th wheel shaft which carries the center seconds shaft and is driven by the gear. cannon number depending on height is 1218 to 1220. hour wheel number is again depending on height 1231 to 1233.  So in short just fit the cannon and fit hour wheel over it. The min hand fits the cannon the hour hand fits the hour wheel. On a lot of older watches the cannon is indented and friction fits to the center wheel shaft and is driven by the same. Do you have the hour wheel for this movement.

[Purra]

Hi, yes I have the hour wheel for this movement. See the pictures below.  As you can see there is just enough space to fit the minute hand. So thats fine. However are you saying the cannon pinion needs to still be friction fitted to the center wheel shaft?

[watchweasol]

Hi  No what I remember is the cannon is free running driven from the large periphery of the minute wheel and the hour wheel is driven from the smaller gear on the minute wheel. what I would do is to assemble the watch with the top plate fit the hands and put a turn or two on the mainspring then let it run, If all ok and the hands drive ok then fit the dial and re-run the watch uncased under a glass/plastic cover and see how that goes, do not at this stage maul the cannon pinion. The time loss could be down to a dirty movement /old oil, there are a number of reasons.  Have you dismantled and cleaned the watch or is it as it was purchased, It the best bet is to service the watch and check the rate then lets just see where we go from there before altering anything. These Omega's are fine movements so be careful.

[ITProDad]

Hi  No what I remember is the cannon is free running driven from the large periphery of the minute wheel and the hour wheel is driven from the smaller gear on the minute wheel. what I would do is to assemble the watch with the top plate fit the hands and put a turn or two on the mainspring then let it run, If all ok and the hands drive ok then fit the dial and re-run the watch uncased under a glass/plastic cover and see how that goes, do not at this stage maul the cannon pinion. The time loss could be down to a dirty movement /old oil, there are a number of reasons.  Have you dismantled and cleaned the watch or is it as it was purchased, It the best bet is to service the watch and check the rate then lets just see where we go from there before altering anything. These Omega's are fine movements so be careful.

Watch weasel is correct. I “assumed” the watch was cleaned and serviced and this was a reassembly discover issue. My very bad!! And I loath that expression.


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[Nucejoe]

How strong is the amplitude?   How much time loss per 24hr? 

Is the time loss continueous? Or runs the hand for sometime and stop moving the hands?  How loose dose the crown turn in adjust position?

[Nucejoe]

7 hours ago, ITProDad said:

 

Watch weasel is correct. I “assumed” the watch was cleaned and serviced and this was a reassembly discover issue. My very bad!! And I loath that expression.


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This is not a fixed center tube, I see a center jewel for the center tube/shaft to turn inside , Therefrom, the tube turns the canon pinion which turns the reduction wheel( min wheel), so some friction is needed between the tube and canon pinion.

Canon pinion is not friction fitted  on the tube, however some criction between the two is needed or the canon pinion  just slips.

[Purra]

4 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

How strong is the amplitude?   How much time loss per 24hr? 

Is the time loss continueous? Or runs the hand for sometime and stop moving the hands?  How loose dose the crown turn in adjust position?

The problem is: the minute and hour hands don't move at all when I wind the main spring. However when i pull the crown and adjust the time, they are moving fins, but they are moving very fast, like how a loose cannon pinion feels. 

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, Purra said:

The problem is: the minute and hour hands don't move at all when I wind the main spring. However when i pull the crown and adjust the time, they are moving fins, but they are moving very fast, like how a loose cannon pinion feels. 

Dose the center tube ( arbor/tube    canon pinion mounts on) move/turn by the runing of the movement?      If it dose, gear train is delivering, at the tube, which is what its suppose to do. In which case tigthening canon pinion is in order.

Hands can be moved through the crown in set position, regardless of loose or good canon pinion/ center tube interface.   Regards

 

 

[Nucejoe]

Check if center tube turns as the movement runs. 

 

[Purra]

I'm now checking if the center tube is turning.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Purra

[Purra]

Yes it does turn!

[Nucejoe]

44 minutes ago, Purra said:

Yes it does turn

So, slippage at the canon pinion is the very likely cause. 

 

Edited September 15, 2019 by Nucejoe
No reason to suspect anything else at this point

[Purra]

8 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

So, slippage at the canon pinion is the very likely cause. 

Yes I think that also, so you were telling me it needs to slip, but not very tight. I also just cleaned the center tube with lighter fluid.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Purra

[Nucejoe]

Yes at one hand,  the canon pinion is to have some friction at interface with the center tube, to transfer the motion to min/ side gear and at the other hand it should let motion from the min train to take over, so we can set the time.

Have you seen the illustrated  glossory of parts and their names according to ETA?

 

 

Eternaltools.com/blog/swiss-eta-watch-movement-parts 

Helps with a common vocabulary for parts names.

 

 

[Nucejoe]

I think that  excess oil/grease on center tube caused the slippage with the old canon pinion.

In case it turned out too tight, I would oil the canon pinion interface, turn manually with the crown.

Sometimes you would need to broach the canon pinion if too tight, so appraoch the suitable friction in small increments. 

Once you do this, you feel master at it.

[jdm]

On 9/14/2019 at 9:33 AM, Purra said:

I ordered a new cannon pinion for this cal. However when i'm placing it it doesnt need any force to place. It drops right in place.

Then either it is not the right part for the tube, or the tube is severely worn out and would have to be replaced as well - that would be strange but not impossible. To check you would have to inspect with a microscope or high-mag loupe, and/or measure with a micrometer for a known correct size. 

Quote

Could it be that even the new cannon pinion needs tightning?

No, and I recommend that you don't do that. These are supposed to be quality parts are manufactured precisely. There is no amount of oil/grease that can cause the cannon pinion to lose its designed friction to the tube, or regain it in case isn't there.

Edited September 15, 2019 by jdm

[Purra]

4 minutes ago, jdm said:

Then either it is not the right part for the tube, or the tube is severely worn out and would have to be replaced as wheel - that would be strange but not impossible. To check you would have to inspect with a microscope or high-mag loupe, and/or measure with a micrometer for a known correct size. 

No. These are supposed to be quality parts are manufactured precisely. There is no amount of oil/grease that can cause the cannon pinion to lose have the designed friction to the tube, or regain it in case isn't there.

Okay, thank you. Since the old cannon pinion was also losing time i'm starting to think my tube is worn out. Now that cannon pinion was relatively easily replaced. If I wanted to replace the center wheel, would that be a repair I can do myself?

[Nucejoe]

Canon pinion is of the same quality as the severly worn out tube, which we oil at the jewel it to reduce friction and wear of.

Canon pinion itself is our micrometer showing loose center tube- canon pinion engagement. 

Replacement with new canon pinion is ofcourse the prefered option.

Regards joe.