Movement running depending on Orientation

[Dpastl]

Good Evening (where I am),

I've been working on my Peirce 103SC and I'm really happy to say that it's getting pretty close to working.  I'm surprised how well this watch is turning out considering I found it at the bottom of a bin of junk in an antique shop! 

At any rate, I was hoping that I could ask for some advice in fixing this last issue: poor running depending on orientation of the watch.  Basically, if the watch is dial up, it'll stop running, but every other orientation seems to run okay-ish (reduced amplitude in some cases).  I think I've assembled it and oiled it correctly (I'm new to this), but it just stops running.  Light pressure on the endstone on the balance cock also will slow then halt the balance.  Is there a common problem I'm overlooking that could cause this?

Some more info if you're interested: The balance did have too much endplay, but I determined that was because the plate under the balance cock had been gouged (after manufacturing), leaving some metal edges sticking up.  I chiseled those away and it's running better now.  The pallet fork also has a lot of endplay (maybe 0.5mm?) but I don't know what to do about it or if it matters.  All the jewels are in good condition and the mainspring is brand new.  Here's a couple short videos looking at the balance.

Thanks in advance for any help!

[Nucejoe]

Flip over,  the endstone on the cock side, so the dome side of end stone faces the pivot.

 

[oldhippy]

When people start playing around with end shake on the balance and escapement, all sorts of problems can happen. It is a process of elimination. The first thing to do is check all the stones, make sure they are in tiptop condition. If you have removed, the caps make sure you have put them back the right way and in the order, you removed them. Check the staff. Make sure the hairspring is correct and not touching something. In the end, you might find the only way to sort it out is by getting hold of new parts. If someone has been digging around with the balance cock and the bottom plate, you might never get things right.

[Nucejoe]

8 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Flip over,  the endstone on the cock side, so the dome side of end stone faces the pivot.

 

The above approach may be regarded as bad habbit, in which case do please discount.

[Dpastl]

9 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

The above approach may be regarded as bad habbit, in which case do please discount.

Haha, yeah, I don't have extra endshake on the balance anymore, it looks about right.  I'll keep that in mind for next time.

[Dpastl]

13 hours ago, oldhippy said:

When people start playing around with end shake on the balance and escapement, all sorts of problems can happen. It is a process of elimination. The first thing to do is check all the stones, make sure they are in tiptop condition. If you have removed, the caps make sure you have put them back the right way and in the order, you removed them. Check the staff. Make sure the hairspring is correct and not touching something. In the end, you might find the only way to sort it out is by getting hold of new parts. If someone has been digging around with the balance cock and the bottom plate, you might never get things right.

Yeah, hopefully I've not messed it up.  To me it seemed obvious as the indents looked random and not intentional, but really I don't have any idea.  I'll check I have them installed right and I'll look at the staff.  I don't think I had a chance to check it over before, or the hairspring. If not I'll have to do like you say and start replacing parts.

Thanks for the advice!!

[rduckwor]

The "gouging" under the balance cock may have been a prior worker's way of developing additional end shake for the balance. I have seen that done and described as a "poor man's shim".

RMD

[Dpastl]

35 minutes ago, rduckwor said:

The "gouging" under the balance cock may have been a prior worker's way of developing additional end shake for the balance. I have seen that done and described as a "poor man's shim".

RMD

Hmm... I didn't think of that.  I assumed there was too much end shake but I honestly am not sure

[anilv]

Loosen the balance cock screw and shim it with a piece of foil. See if that helps.

I assume the watch was not running? The previous guy might have tried a few things (gouges included) to get it running but gave up in disgust. Look at other ares especially pivots.

The location of the gouges also play a part, if its further out than the balance cock screw it will decrease endshake. If the gouges are further in nearer the balance staff, it will increase endshake. Think of the gouge as a wedge.

Good luck.

Anilv

[Dpastl]

So I took the balance out to inspect it and I think you're all right that it was intentional.  I found this on the bottom of the balance cock.  They're gouges that have been flattened down.

 

I also found this under the pallet fork cock (which almost certainly has too much endshake now).

This is what's left after I chiseled off the gouges from the plate at the start of this post.

 

 

[Dpastl]

35 minutes ago, anilv said:

Loosen the balance cock screw and shim it with a piece of foil. See if that helps.

I assume the watch was not running? The previous guy might have tried a few things (gouges included) to get it running but gave up in disgust. Look at other ares especially pivots.

The location of the gouges also play a part, if its further out than the balance cock screw it will decrease endshake. If the gouges are further in nearer the balance staff, it will increase endshake. Think of the gouge as a wedge.

Good luck.

Anilv

Well, I think for the moment I can rule out whoever did this trying to remove endshake, so I think I'll buy some shim stock tomorrow and try shimming the cocks up as needed.  I much prefer the idea of shims over gouges that shift over time, but then I also have access to some pretty amazing machinists for parts.

[Dpastl]

Some updates about the balance itself:

The hairspring isn't looking too great.  On further inspection from the side I'm pretty sure that either I (likely) or the last watch repairman (less likely) bent it.

I'm also remembering cleaning out a large amount of debris from inside the incabloc chaton, underneath the pierre a trou.  I vaugly remember it being on the plate side, but not 100% on that.  At any rate I think the pivot is worn down:

The other side looks much better.

[Dpastl]

So I removed the gouges under the pallet fork cock as best I could and installed the forks and cock. Now down from scary amount of endplay to "i guess" amount.  I think I'm going to order a new balance staff and fix the hairspring.  Those seem like the next two best bets for fixing this.

I case anyone is wondering, I think this thread is becoming partially a diary of my progress in getting this watch working.  Hopefully it'll help someone else down the road, regardless if it turns our negative or positive.  I super appreciate all comments/advice as I'm only on my second month of watch repair.

I also can't stress enough to just go out and get a stereomicroscope.  It's a complete game changer to be able to see ever important detail of the watch. And don't go get an amscope.  Find an old Bausch and Lomb.  I've used both and the amscope is a fight every time for me, where my bauch and lomb is clear and easy to use.

[Nucejoe]

You don,t have a pivot, HS looks to have taken the brunt of brexit. You cleaned and actually reinstalled this?   Are you serious? 

Shimming dosn,t neccessarily fix short pivot problem, Anvil said" try it see what happens" 

I would refer to advice from OH. 

[oldhippy]

The balance staff needs replacing. The hairspring needs to be sorted. Someone has been digging around to compensate for the wear of the staff. Even if you got hold of a complete balance, you still might have trouble, all due to someone’s shoddy work.

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

The balance staff needs replacing. The hairspring needs to be sorted. Someone has been digging around to compensate for the wear of the staff. Even if you got hold of a complete balance, you still might have trouble, all due to someone’s shoddy work.

Hi OH, I see your peridiction coming true, a crystal ball? 

[Doninvt]

10 hours ago, rduckwor said:

The "gouging" under the balance cock may have been a prior worker's way of developing additional end shake for the balance. I have seen that done and described as a "poor man's shim".

RMD

On one of Marc's videos, he found this had been done at the factory on a new movement (chinese?)

 

[Dpastl]

12 hours ago, oldhippy said:

The balance staff needs replacing. The hairspring needs to be sorted. Someone has been digging around to compensate for the wear of the staff. Even if you got hold of a complete balance, you still might have trouble, all due to someone’s shoddy work.

Well, I'm going to order a new balance and then I'll fix the hairspring.  Thankfully I've done this once already on an older movement after watching Marc's video on that.  I hope that I'm able to get it running eventually, but you're right, there may be even more troubles lurking down below that make it not worth repairing, especially since I can buy another 103 movement relatively cheaply.

[Dpastl]

So I haven't been updating this much as it was taking a super long time to get parts.  I was able to order a new balance staff buuuut in the process of switching over the hairspring and little jewel thing (still learning) I damaged the hairspring quite badly.  Before attempting this operation I made sure to check that I could order a complete balance from jules borel, just in case.  So, $90 later, I had my new balance.

I was actually able to clean up the modifications that a previous watch "repairer" had done.  I think they were trying to use a balance staff they had lying around to just get it running again but they really just made a mess of it.  Putting everything back to factory brought the endshake into an acceptable amount.  It's been running for a few weeks now without issue.  Super happy to finally have fixed this watch and be able to wear it!!!