6497 clone gains massively after cleaning

[Florian]

I've been practicing on a 6497 clone for a while now. I've disassembled and reassembled it a few times with good results. I've now cut off 0.75mm from the seconds arbor to fit a centre seconds dial, (before I splurge for a real centre seconds 6497) and I figured it would be a good time for a clean before reassembly. 

 

I've ultrasonically cleaned everything (except the main barrel which is internally untouched as I have no spring winder yet) in an ammonia based watch cleaning solution I've used before. Including the balance, which was cleaned while still attached to the cock.

 

Upon reassembly, the amplitude is slightly low, down to ~270 from 300+ (escape angle set to 44 deg on the timegrapher) and it gains 5-700s/day. I've been scratching my head what to do.

The train down to the escape wheel moves very freely, the fork and balance itself seem to move freely when installed by themselves. I don't think I mixed up the upper and lower balance jewels.

I think I have bent the lower incabloc spring slightly, but for now it holds the jewel ok.

I can't think of what might be the problem. Any tips?

Thanks

Florian

 

 

[ecodec]

Hi Florian, if you are sure that the balance is clean, the HS central and free and no oil on the pallet pivots then have you properly de-magnetised the watch. Check that the lever flicks to the banking. Also try this for low amplitude, move the lever a touch from the banking both sides and watch the Draw pull the lever back when released. The gain sounds like a HS problem to me. I hope this is of help, Mike.

[Deggsie]

I have read that ultrasonic cleaning machines can detrimentally effect the HS material properties through ‘work hardening’ the surface, thereby changing the oscillating frequency. Has anyone else found this to be true please? I do not clean enough watches to truly warrant using a machine, but may well invest in one if there are no harmful effects.

Regards


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[Geo]

I've used one for years with no detrimental effect to hairspring.  Many professional  watch cleaners also have ultrasonic cleaning.

[Deggsie]

Thank you for confirming that.



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[JohnR725]

3 minutes ago, Deggsie said:

I have read that ultrasonic cleaning machines can detrimentally effect the HS material properties through ‘work hardening’ the surface, thereby changing the oscillating frequency

It's an interesting theory which may or may not be true the problem is all professional watch shops all the factories practically everywhere in the universe except hobbyists who cannot afford ultrasonic cleaning machines use ultrasonic cleaning machines. If we were seeing a really dramatically horrible effect of ultrasonic cleaning machines would the entire universe still be using ultrasonic cleaning machines to clean watches?

 

1 hour ago, Florian said:

ammonia based watch cleaning solution

Ammonia-based watch cleaning solutions work really well for cleaning except? Ammonia is bad for brass so you should limit your cleaning In the ammonia solution. Then there are a variety of environmental factors like how hot the solution is but I found limiting the four minutes works just fine. The watches come out bright and shiny and clean. The bright shiny as the effect of the ammonia if you go too long the solution will turn either blue or green and that's because your etching of the copper out of the brass. As you are basically doing a training movement with fresh oils you wouldn't need more than a minute or two in the cleaning fluid. But the rest of the solutions the rinses those you can run whatever your normal time is.

1 hour ago, Florian said:

5-700s/day

 

You want to clarify 5-700a day? 5 is good 700 is bad usually fast is issues with the hairspring. If you're cleaning fluid was getting dirty for instance they hairspring can stick together. If you look at the hairspring does it look nice and flat, Pictures would be nice.

[Florian]

Thanks for the tip about brass and ammonia John, I didn't know. I have a WWII vintage watch that needs TLC and I'd hate to ruin it. I haven't touched it yet until I get some experience on the cheapies.

The HS looked flat and even. The fork did snap to each bank when pushed. To clarify, the watch is now gaining 500s/day, but I've seen as much as 700+. I think the amplitude is definitely lower than before, so something is wrong there. I will go back and check everything again tomorrow, and if I can get some good pics I'll do so.

 

Mike, what do you mean when you said no oil on the pallet pivots? you mean on the fork pivots or on the pallet faces? both are oiled. I checked the watch on the timegrapher not long ago, and it definitely had 300+ amplitude and less than 10s/day error. I suppose it could have gotten magnetized before I cleaned it but I have some doubts. If all else fails I will try to demagnetize it. If it were magnetized, would it not run slower?

 

Many thanks guys, I'll come back tomorrow with news.

 

 

[nickelsilver]

I have read that ultrasonic cleaning machines can detrimentally effect the HS material properties through ‘work hardening’ the surface, thereby changing the oscillating frequency. Has anyone else found this to be true please? I do not clean enough watches to truly warrant using a machine, but may well invest in one if there are no harmful effects.

Regards


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ultrasonic doesn't affect hairsprings. Your average watch from 50 years ago has probably been ultrasonically cleaned numerous times with no I'll effects.

[Giuseppe]

I've too limited expertise but one thing I've learnt is that fork pivots mustn't be oiled.
Am I wrong?

[Florian]

20 minutes ago, Giuseppe said:

I've too limited expertise but one thing I've learnt is that fork pivots mustn't be oiled.
Am I wrong?

That's a very fine question. I always assumed so, but looking at the ETA lube chart now I'm having second thoughts. How would you interpret this?

 

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by Florian
better pic

[Giuseppe]

I do not see lubrication icon on the pallet fork jewels.

[Florian]

You're right Giuseppe, I'll go clean it up and let you guys know.

[Florian]

Ok, I cleaned the fork pivots and jewels, reinstalled dry (that pivot hole cleaner was fun to make, lol). Demagnetized the watch. Definitely better than before, but still not great. Fairly erratic parameters though, amplitude from 280-345 (!), and most of all, the best running adjustments seems to be with the regulator and beat adjuster way off the edge of the balance cock, see pics. 

Sorry for the crummy pics, best I can do handheld after dark.

 

[nickelsilver]

Definitely don't oil pallet fork pivots, and always peg pallet fork pivot holes. Stick the pivots in hard pith, the horns too.

 

For such a huge increase in rate I'm guessing a coil of the hairspring is caught on the regulator or it's otherwise mucked up.

 

Edit- posted this while you were posting

[Florian]

also, a video of the balance running

 

 

 

[Florian]

1 minute ago, nickelsilver said:

Definitely don't oil pallet fork pivots, and always peg pallet fork pivot holes. Stick the pivots in hard pith, the horns too.
For such a huge increase in rate I'm guessing a coil of the hairspring is caught on the regulator or it's otherwise mucked up.

I used rodico and a finely ground sharpened toothpick.

 

Also, I would have thought getting an entire coil snagged would be obvious even to an amateur like me. I looked, that doesn't appear to be the case. Can't rule out some other invisible damage though, sigh. I'll order a new clone to see if that's what did it.

 

 

[JohnR725]

Can you photographed the results of a timing machine? Then when timing you don't just do one position multiple positions are nice like dial-up and dial down. Then one crown/pendant position minimum. Typically pocket watches rollers timed minimum of crown up because that's position that are carried in. This is basically just a big wristwatch so wristwatches if you're only doing one position in the crown would be crown down. Then the graph the results each of the positional testing.

Then when you are practicing disassembling and reassembling did you also practice cleaning and oiling each time? Plus what kind of oil are you using. Then no you don't oil the pallet fork pivots that causes a decrease in amplitude.

[ecodec]

20 hours ago, Florian said:

Thanks for the tip about brass and ammonia John, I didn't know. I have a WWII vintage watch that needs TLC and I'd hate to ruin it. I haven't touched it yet until I get some experience on the cheapies.

The HS looked flat and even. The fork did snap to each bank when pushed. To clarify, the watch is now gaining 500s/day, but I've seen as much as 700+. I think the amplitude is definitely lower than before, so something is wrong there. I will go back and check everything again tomorrow, and if I can get some good pics I'll do so.

 

Mike, what do you mean when you said no oil on the pallet pivots? you mean on the fork pivots or on the pallet faces? both are oiled. I checked the watch on the timegrapher not long ago, and it definitely had 300+ amplitude and less than 10s/day error. I suppose it could have gotten magnetized before I cleaned it but I have some doubts. If all else fails I will try to demagnetize it. If it were magnetized, would it not run slower?

 

Many thanks guys, I'll come back tomorrow with news.

 

 

After having a problem with a Certina watch (low amplitude) Old Hippy told me not to oil the pallet pivots. Cleaning and assembling the pallet pivots oil free gave me an extra approx 60 deg. amplitude. Previously I had used 9010. The pivots rotate only a very few degrees so oil is not needed. 

[Florian]

8 minutes ago, ecodec said:

After having a problem with a Certina watch (low amplitude) Old Hippy told me not to oil the pallet pivots. Cleaning and assembling the pallet pivots oil free gave me an extra approx 60 deg. amplitude. Previously I had used 9010. The pivots rotate only a very few degrees so oil is not needed. 

 

You learn something new every day. Thanks for sharing!

 

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Can you photographed the results of a timing machine? Then when timing you don't just do one position multiple positions are nice like dial-up and dial down. Then one crown/pendant position minimum. Typically pocket watches rollers timed minimum of crown up because that's position that are carried in. This is basically just a big wristwatch so wristwatches if you're only doing one position in the crown would be crown down. Then the graph the results each of the positional testing.

Then when you are practicing disassembling and reassembling did you also practice cleaning and oiling each time? Plus what kind of oil are you using. Then no you don't oil the pallet fork pivots that causes a decrease in amplitude.

I will. For now the readings are all over the place, amplitude is down generally but varies 320-240, beat error goes from 2-6ms, and the rate as well. Sometimes I suspect my timegrapher is broken. I'm going to disassemble the movement and clean the plates and balance/fork bridges in a degreaser. What would you guys use, alcohol, acetone? something else? 

 

I'm using Koch oil #2, when I disassembled previously I didn't clean or oil, strictly reassembly.

Thanks again guys!

 

 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Florian said:

Koch oil #2

interesting googling Koch oil #2 Not quite finding it anywhere it be nice to know the specifications like the viscosity for instance?

For diagnosing problems it's helpful to understand the history versus I put my watch on the timing machine it looks like crap? As a new person especially when starting out with a new watch that's running it's really good to put that on the timing machine. Then it's not just one position as I pointed out above multiple positions because problems don't always show up in one position. Brand-new watch on the timing machine right the results down then you disassemble. When you reassemble back on the timing machine make sure it still doing what it did before more or less. This can a problem usually shows up with new bees with broken watches where we don't actually know how bad the watch was before and whether the new be made it worse servicing.

Then we really do need to see a picture of the timing machine Results preferably before you take the watch apart and clean it or a attempt to clean it.

[Florian]

Victory! I disassembled it, washed the mainplate, fork, fork bridge, balance and it's bridge, their jewels separately in alcohol. I didn't think the fork jewels were shellac'ed on but I was watching, and sure enough, the shellac started dissolving. I pulled it out before any harm was done and finished cleaning with rodico. Reassembled and relubed everything except the fork pivots. 

 

To my surprise, I also learned that the regulator tail is a separate piece from the piece actually carrying the regulator pins, so I was able to adjust the regulation and beat nicely while keeping the tail in a reasonable position. I'm cherrypicking here obviously, but here is the final result. This movement has never ran as well as it does now, so I'm very happy. THANK YOU all for your help.

 

Cheers

Florian

 

 

[Geo]

Excellent outcome Florian!