American pocket watch winding clutch problem

[khunter]

So I have this 12s Illinois that I've been working on, cleaning and oiling, everything is fine. Except. The winding clutch binds on the "backward" wind, winding the spring the action is fine, on the "clutching" turn the teeth of the clutch wheels are almost like they're glued together. Everything has been cleaned, there are no worn or chipped teeth, I've tried it lubricated and dry, all with the same result, binding on the backward wind. It was fine before disassembly and cleaning. The clutch lever is free, the setting position is totally free and easy. The arbor is not bound, it's just the teeth "grabbing" each other and not releasing. Any suggestions would be great!!For some reason it won't let me upload a picture, if I figure that out I'll post it later.

[JohnR725]

In the absence of pictures which model of 12 size Illinois? Then usually its lubrication except you said you lubricated? So what are you lubricating with? Then occasionally I've seen with the clutch wheels they need to be replaced. Everything looks fine at least memory they looked fine and just replacing Solved the problem.

[jdm]

7 hours ago, khunter said:

So I have this 12s Illinois that I've been working on, cleaning and oiling, everything is fine. 

Just FYI, we have a section on this forum where most members like to introduce themselves even before asking questions.

[khunter]

4 hours ago, jdm said:

Just FYI, we have a section on this forum where most members like to introduce themselves even before asking questions.

Duly noted, I added a bio. 

[vinn3]

some Illinois watches were very cheaply made,  just a learning watch.   the older ones were quite well made.   John is quite right.   you need a pix and maybe some "internet identification .  good luck, vin 

[khunter]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

In the absence of pictures which model of 12 size Illinois? Then usually its lubrication except you said you lubricated? So what are you lubricating with? Then occasionally I've seen with the clutch wheels they need to be replaced. Everything looks fine at least memory they looked fine and just replacing Solved the problem.

It's a 21j model 1, and yes I replaced the winding clutch assembly last night and it works fine now, what gets me is that it worked fine before cleaning. I've used mobius 8010 ( I think) and also a full synthetic that I have. I don't have D5 which is probably the best to use on the winding parts. I took all the original parts and polished the mating surfaces, the shoulders of the winding arbor, clutch teeth, etc (.5 micron diamond paste and a lot of fiddling) but haven't tried them again yet, the replacement parts just came out of an old junk movement without much more than a wipe down and they work just fine. Anyway I still can't upload pictures, maybe my file sizes are too large.

[khunter]

17 minutes ago, vinn3 said:

some Illinois watches were very cheaply made,  just a learning watch.   the older ones were quite well made.   John is quite right.   you need a pix and maybe some "internet identification .  good luck, vin 

Guess it's file size, here's a picture of the clutch. Identification isn't the issue, just the sticking teeth lol. I got it fixed with another winding assembly but I would like to know why the originals stopped working after cleaning. Thanks!

[khunter]

18 minutes ago, khunter said:

It's a 21j model 1, and yes I replaced the winding clutch assembly last night and it works fine now, what gets me is that it worked fine before cleaning. I've used mobius 8010 ( I think) and also a full synthetic that I have. I don't have D5 which is probably the best to use on the winding parts. I took all the original parts and polished the mating surfaces, the shoulders of the winding arbor, clutch teeth, etc (.5 micron diamond paste and a lot of fiddling) but haven't tried them again yet, the replacement parts just came out of an old junk movement without much more than a wipe down and they work just fine. Anyway I still can't upload pictures, maybe my file sizes are too large.

 

[khunter]

Photo of the movement. Illinois Central is the railroad that my grandfather and father worked on, so it holds some sentimental value. I think it cleaned up nicely considering the shape it arrived in. All the screws and regulator, spring, etc were hand polished, complete tear down and clean/oil. I have a 10k case on it's way that it will live in, and the dial  (not pictured) also is marked Illinois Central and is in fine shape. New hands will be fitted as the old ones were not worth refinishing (broken tip on the minute hand).

[digginstony]

That's a very nice quality movement. If you want to look at some cheap rubbish, see pics. It's from an old trench watch. The balance staff pivots are more like something you would find on a child's spinning top toy. I've seen something similar on a Russian wall clock.
If you are using diamond paste to polish parts, you need to remove all trace, any residual will cause accelerated wear.

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[khunter]

1 hour ago, digginstony said:

That's a very nice quality movement. If you want to look at some cheap rubbish, see pics. It's from an old trench watch. The balance staff pivots are more like something you would find on a child's spinning top toy. I've seen something similar on a Russian wall clock.
If you are using diamond paste to polish parts, you need to remove all trace, any residual will cause accelerated wear.

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The parts all went back through the cleaner, followed by a broach to get inside the recesses, then a wipe with the rodico....:)

[khunter]

Here's some pictures of the freshly polished old parts under 30x magnification. It's really hard to see in the photos but all the mating or friction surfaces are pretty much mirror finish. I haven't tried it in the movement yet, I may just leave it for another project sometime as the one I have in there now is working perfectly. 

[JohnR725]

Don't think there is an 8010 lubrication? Then I thought all of the 8000 series was natural Or mineral oils. You have to go to 9000 series to get the synthetic oils. Then I prefer something that's a little heavier than oil PML Stem Grease W-10 Seems to be harder and harder to find though.

Illinois is interesting with the 12 size they only have I think five different models. But they have a whole bunch of different grades and those have variations the end up with lots and lots of variations. If you look at the first leg notice all the variations going down the page.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/illinois/3057090

This is a grade 274 next link talks about that lots and lots of variations. Then you get things like this the watch was manufactured from 1911 to 1926 Which means you get interesting parts variations between the first and the end series.

http://illinoiswatchguide.com/grade274.html

[khunter]

23 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Don't think there is an 8010 lubrication? Then I thought all of the 8000 series was natural Or mineral oils. You have to go to 9000 series to get the synthetic oils. Then I prefer something that's a little heavier than oil PML Stem Grease W-10 Seems to be harder and harder to find though.

Illinois is interesting with the 12 size they only have I think five different models. But they have a whole bunch of different grades and those have variations the end up with lots and lots of variations. If you look at the first leg notice all the variations going down the page.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/illinois/3057090

This is a grade 274 next link talks about that lots and lots of variations. Then you get things like this the watch was manufactured from 1911 to 1926 Which means you get interesting parts variations between the first and the end series.

http://illinoiswatchguide.com/grade274.html

I purchased the mobeus oil several years ago and cant remember the actual number. I recently switched to a full synthetic (not mobeus) as an experiment and have been pleased with the results so far.

That website on the 12 size Illinois movements is interesting and I hadn't seen it before. I generally stick to 16 and 18 size movements, but the Illinois Central will almost always get my attention. I recently restored another 12s 17j IC and gave it to my brother for Christmas. 

Edited January 26, 2018 by khunter

[khunter]

So I finally got the case and finished this one off. I had to re-blue the minute and seconds hands but I think it all came out really well. 

[jdm]

13 minutes ago, khunter said:

So I finally got the case and finished this one off.

Very nice, for jobs like this if you document all the steps and present them in a single topic, we have a dedicated section called walk-throughs.

[digginstony]

Very nice job. Looks like you've used something like "Birchwood Casey" gun blue for the hands. They look great.

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[khunter]

1 hour ago, digginstony said:

Very nice job. Looks like you've used something like "Birchwood Casey" gun blue for the hands. They look great.

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No, you don't use chemicals, it's polished mirror clean then heated over an alcohol lamp, I normally place the hand in a metal measuring spoon filled about half way with brass shavings to distribute the heat more evenly. Old school. 

[digginstony]

No, you don't use chemicals, it's polished mirror clean then heated over an alcohol lamp, I normally place the hand in a metal measuring spoon filled about half way with brass shavings to distribute the heat more evenly. Old school. 

Very nice job beautifully done [emoji16]

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[BUSAKAZ]

Stunning you can’t beat old school


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[khunter]

So I recently ran up on the same problem with the winding clutch and pinions, this time on a 16s. I deliberately left them out of the cleaner and did them by hand and ended up with the same sticking problem. This time I ended up cleaning all the teeth again and lightly oiling with a small drop of sewing machine oil and voila, no more sticking and a nice, smooth action. One more lesson learned.