How do you measure the diameter of the center retainer of watch hands ?

[MilTimeCan]

Good day everyone,

I wanted to put a set of hands that I had on a dead watch onto an Orient Quartz that I have.

The Orient watch hands are small, very light in color (silver) and difficult to see (old eyes).  

The Orient movement is an HE 721 quartz.

The type of hands on both the dead watch and the Orient are "Dauphine"

http://www.ofrei.com/page575.html 

The diameter on the dead watch hands appeared very close to the Orient and they are black (very good contrast with the white dial).

The dead watch hour hand was way too loose and the minute hand was way to small.

Fortunately, Mark's videos came in to rescue me on how to take the hands off and put them back on again (phew, saved by those videos again)

I tried using the hand presser openings (I have a set of three with nylon ends and diameter openings: flat to 3.50mm) but that was awkward, maybe I am not used to them yet, this was my first time.

If I did want to change them at a later time, is there a better way to measure the diameter so I can order ?

Thoughts, ideas, suggestions ?   

 

       

Edited September 25, 2016 by MilTimeCan

[Cad101]

A set of vernier calipers will help in measuring all the posts hour minute and seconds  diameters they are also very handy for measuring watch crystal diameters and lots of others things a very handy tòol and very reasonably priced on the bay.

[Cad101]

you can get digital and a standard slide rule set either work but the digital one is easier just for its quickness I have both but use the digital mostly.

[MilTimeCan]

33 minutes ago, Cad101 said:

A set of vernier calipers will help in measuring all the posts hour minute and seconds  diameters they are also very handy for measuring watch crystal diameters and lots of others things a very handy tòol and very reasonably priced on the bay.

Thank you !

 

[Ishima]

Vernier to measure the cannons of the movement, but if you want to measure the hands directly there's a special tool bergeon make. Probably not worth the investment for a one off job, but verniers are really handy and should be among anyone's tools. 

If i remember correctly you can allow the hand to be 0.05mm too tight.  so if you measure a canon to be 0.80, you can probably make anything from 0.80 to 0.75 fit with any luck.  it's been a while since I had to source any new hands, so take that with a pinch of salt.

Edited September 25, 2016 by Ishima

[clockboy]

I find this tool is really useful & easy to use for the measure of hands.

 

[SSTEEL]

I use the same ^^^

[Geo]

Me too!

[vinn3]

dial or didital calipers are the best for old eyes and accuracy.  some dititals will read metric or inch with the flip of a switch.  to make the hole larger and to the right diameter you use  a set of  "taper reamers"    vinn.

[MilTimeCan]

19 hours ago, Ishima said:

If i remember correctly you can allow the hand to be 0.05mm too tight.  so if you measure a canon to be 0.80, you can probably make anything from 0.80 to 0.75 fit with any luck.  it's been a while since I had to source any new hands, so take that with a pinch of salt.

Very useful info, I was wondering about how much gap earlier today

[MilTimeCan]

17 hours ago, clockboy said:

I find this tool is really useful & easy to use for the measure of hands.

 

That is a really cool tool !

Maybe, i'll try to coax the family into getting that as a Christmas stocking stuffer 

 

Edited September 26, 2016 by MilTimeCan

[Geo]

I recommend the Bergeon style hand gauge as above,  and getting it as Christmas present sound like a great idea!

Digital calipers are very useful and I wouldn't be without mine, but when it comes to measuring tiny inside diameters there are a couple of issues with them.  

If the hole is really small you won't manage to get the blades of the calipers to enter the hole.  

The other issue relates to holes that you can just get the blades to enter.  Due to the width of the blades (the small flat on the anvils) you will get a reading that is slightly smaller than the correct size due to four point contact.   Ideally the blades would have to be a true knife edge to get a single point contact across the diameter of the hole.  Also it is not easy to keep the calipers in correct alignment to the bore when taking a reading.  This can give a large percentage error on such a small diameter.

 

[bobm12]

I also use the "cool tool"!

Cheers,

Bob

PS. More like for the toe...you'll need more stuffing for your stocking even if you have small feet!...the tool is kind of small...and the price is big by comparison at US$50, but not too bad considering it is a Bergeon ($$$).

 

 

[Ishima]

Everyone's specifying digital vernier and here I am being old school and satisfied with my analogue mitutoyo vernier. But I guess that's another discussion entirely.

[Marc]

+1 Ishima

I have both a digital caliper and a PAV vernier caliper in my bench and I invariably reach first for the PAV first. I actually find it quicker and more satisfying to use than the digital. "Old school" rules!!!

[MilTimeCan]

On 9/26/2016 at 2:43 AM, Geo said:

I recommend the Bergeon style hand gauge as above,  and getting it as Christmas present sound like a great idea!

Digital calipers are very useful and I wouldn't be without mine, but when it comes to measuring tiny inside diameters there are a couple of issues with them.  

If the hole is really small you won't manage to get the blades of the calipers to enter the hole.  

The other issue relates to holes that you can just get the blades to enter.  Due to the width of the blades (the small flat on the anvils) you will get a reading that is slightly smaller than the correct size due to four point contact.   Ideally the blades would have to be a true knife edge to get a single point contact across the diameter of the hole.  Also it is not easy to keep the calipers in correct alignment to the bore when taking a reading.  This can give a large percentage error on such a small diameter.

 

duly noted, thanks 

[MilTimeCan]

8 hours ago, Marc said:

+1 Ishima

I have both a digital caliper and a PAV vernier caliper in my bench and I invariably reach first for the PAV first. I actually find it quicker and more satisfying to use than the digital. "Old school" rules!!!

"PAV"...whoa, learning stuff here at every question i ask. 

[MilTimeCan]

On 9/26/2016 at 10:59 AM, bobm12 said:

I also use the "cool tool"!

Cheers,

Bob

PS. More like for the toe...you'll need more stuffing for your stocking even if you have small feet!...the tool is kind of small...and the price is big by comparison at US$50, but not too bad considering it is a Bergeon ($$$).

 

 

Looks kinda uncomfortable for toes

I have seen some descent used models on the net, this tool seems to be a worthwhile investment from my brief experience so far.  

[bobm12]

I sometimes use it a lot and sometimes not...it all depends. You can get a movement to fix and not find any reference to the hands it takes, or want to make sure the "relative" of a movement you already know takes the same hands (trivial but as an example: 7S26 and NH36)

Let's put it this way, it is a tool that you can live without but there is this moment that if you have it, it saves a lot of aggravation, guess work and time...at least for me. Just be careful when handling it since the pins can bend.

Cheers,

Bob

PS, Yes, absolutely, make sure you check the stocking carefully!

 

[Marc]

I have looked covetously at those Bergeon hand gauges on many an occasion, even put in the cheeky bid only to loose out to someone with better finances, but the truth is I simply can't justify the cost. Measuring the inside diameter of hands is something that I don't often need to do but when I do need to I use the poor man's approach :-)

A brass taper pin, a CD pen, and a vernier caliper. The taper pins can be obtained in a variety of sizes from clock supply houses for not very much and are extremely useful in all sorts of situations. This one goes down to 0.2mm which is fine for most hour and minute hands; seconds hands may require a slightly smaller pin.

The hand slides down the pin until it stops, and the pin is marked with the CD pen. This is a minute hand for an ETA 2783.

With the hand removed the pin is measured at the pen mark using the vernier caliper.

In this case 0.9mm.

As I said, I rarely need to do this but when I do it's when I am sorting through my collection of salvaged hands to try and find one to fit a particular job, in which case I actually adopt a slightly different approach.

I measure the post that I need to find a hand to fit. Then using the caliper I locate the point on the taper pin that corresponds to the required diameter and mark it with the pen. I then simply drop the potential candidates onto the pin and see how close they get to the mark. If they are too big then they will drop to below the mark and are rejected. If they stop at the mark then they are the required size. If they stop above the mark then depending on how much too small they are they are either rejected or broached out until they fit.

Simples

 

[MilTimeCan]

On 9/28/2016 at 9:32 AM, Marc said:

A brass taper pin, a CD pen, and a vernier caliper. The taper pins can be obtained in a variety of sizes from clock supply houses for not very much and are extremely useful in all sorts of situations. This one goes down to 0.2mm which is fine for most hour and minute hands; seconds hands may require a slightly smaller pin.

Whoa that's really useful !!!!!!

[Geo]

Again I like your lateral thinking Marc!