Help With an AS 1746/47...I'm perplexed

[ricardopalamino]

Actually , I'm stumped . I have a beauty Germinal Voltaire with a AS 1746/47 hand wind movement that runs beautifully and the second had works just fine , but the minute and hour hands will set but not run.  I have ruined 2 gear parts when I got a donor that was running properly but did not have the date on it , but my movement did , so I thought that I could just swap the part which is the Large Driving wheel , P/N 201/1 .

 

The problem is that this gear assembly has 2 purposes . First , the small gear on the shaft contacts the gear on the mainspring barrel to power the drive train .  Second , the shaft protrudes through the base plate through a jeweled hole and there is another small gear installed on this shaft that makes contact with the minute wheel and is used to both set the hands via the setting mechanism , and turn the cannon pinion through the minute wheel to power the minute hand and hour hand via the hour wheel .

 

In the above pic you and see the jeweled hole between the hour wheel and the setting mechanism , the Large Driving wheel , and also the small gear that contacts the minute wheel .

In the parts list , the Large Driving Wheel only shows one small gear on the shaft . The one that contacts the winding barrel . I saw another part in the parts list called cannon pinion with clam notch P/N 240 , that I am assuming is the small gear that is on the dial side of the base plate and slides over the protruding shaft , and some how attaches itself , because that is the parts that I ruined when I I tried to lever the gear off of the shaft to try and separate the parts to remove it from the jeweled hole in the base plate . 

  In the pics below is the cannon pinion w/clam notch part , and the two small gears I stacked on each other on the common shaft to show how they look in the watch . The jeweled hole in the base plate is between the small gears , and I tried to lever the small gear off and broke the shaft on the Large driving wheel ,....twice . Once on my watch , and once on the donor .

 

 

 

If anyone has experience with this situation I would appreciate any help and Info on how to proceed . 

Also , am I correct in assuming that the small cannon part is what slides over the driving wheel shaft on assembly ?

Thanks for any input . Member Ramrod said I should have asked the members BEFORE I broke the parts .

 

Mahalo , Louis

 

[ricardopalamino]

Does anyone want to add an opinion , or an educated guess  on this type of stacked gears through the baseplate ?

Thanks , Louis

[clockboy]

I have never worked on one of these movements. However to remove this type of gearing you should use a Presto type tool, levering it as you have found will tend to snap things. Something like shown in the link will do the job.The essential part of this job is a level even pull.
I also guess that the friction needed is applied much the same as a canon pinion.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/5-spoke-wheel-remover-bergeon

[jdm]

I guess the reason why you need to separate the assembly is because it's permanently attached to the plate? I'm afraid a stacking set would be needed if the friction is high, as you found already. By pressing on the arbor the metal compresses instead of elongate, which makes removal safe. Possibly one could turn a new shaft.

[Cad101]

Ah the old offset cannon pinion not easy to remove but can be done with as clockboy says a cannon pinion removal tool. It's easier if you can push down first on whats protruding of the shaft . This was updated in the AS1800 range as a clutch type driving wheel on the third wheel easier to remove and grease with some 9010 Mark shows this in his video how to service a mechanical watch part two near the end . Your problem comes in tightening it if its still too slack after greasing seeing as it needs the correct amount of friction to both move the hands in normal mode and forward the hands in setting mode. If both parts are available to purchase I haven't checked so don't know I would get new ones and use a staking set to fit the small cannon pinion after greasing unless you have anothercscrap movement you want to try. Rogard69 told me of novel way to tighten clutch wheels using a set if nail clippers I inserted a broach the same diametre as the shaft and very gently applied preasure to the collar if you get enough magnification you can see where it was tightened originally but I don't know if this would work here.

[vinn3]

nail clippers is a good idea IF you dub the sharp edges.

[jdm]

1 hour ago, Cad101 said:

Ah the old offset cannon pinion not easy to remove but can be done with as clockboy says a cannon pinion removal tool. It's easier if you can push down first on whats protruding of the shaft . 

If I understand correctly the OP problem is separating a wheel/pinion assembly that sits across a plate (a bad idea IMHO), not removing removing the cannon pinion.

[ricardopalamino]

Thank you for the input fellas . I remember seeing that tool now ,...probably in the video that was mentioned . I will definitely have another look at the video . I am sure that I snapped both shafts using uneven pressure as clockboy mentioned . I guess I was a bit surprised at how tight the small gear was on the shaft . The only other parts I have pried off in a similar fashion was a hairspring off of the arbor on a few balances and I suppose I assumed [ incorrectly ] ,that this gear would come off as smoothly .

 I have ordered 2 large driving wheels and 2 cannon pinion with clam notch , [what ever that means . I was just guessing that it would not allow the cannon to be removed once installed . Just a wild guess .] I ordered the cannon pinion from a parts list hoping that it's the correct part that fits on the shaft because it looked like the only part that fit the bill. 

  I ordered the parts from Sudarson at Old Swiss Watches and there is a parts list on his site for this movement . Excellent Service , prices , and shipping costs even to Hawaii .

Once again Guys , Thank you for the useful input .......Louis

[Alastair]

Ah--Such a shame when things break like this....

I guess we have all done it, thought something will come free--with a little extra effort. Possibly the reason the O/P's parts broke may have been rust/corrosion/solidified grease that gripped the parts too tightly and wouldn't let go--Gawd knows when those parts were last separated--if ever since it was first made..

A releasing fluid I make up out of 50/50 acetone and transmission-fluid can sometimes free off rusted screws and oddball parts like this, leave to soak in a little overnight on stubborn parts...

 

[ricardopalamino]

26 minutes ago, jdm said:

If I understand correctly the OP problem is separating a wheel/pinion assembly that sits across a plate (a bad idea IMHO), not removing removing the cannon pinion.

Yes , I was trying to remove the small gear on the dial side from the large driving wheel that is on the wheel train side of the plate ,because the second hand moved fine ,  but the minute hand and hour hand would set but not run at all . I have a Caravelle with a similar movement and a donor  with the  same movement  that were operating properly and I could see that the small gear was not working properly for running the hour and minute hands . I was trying to swap the parts from the donor but snapped both shafts because of improper levering I would think . Once again , I don't know what a clam notch is on the small cannon gear if indeed that is the right part to fit on the large driving wheel shaft .

  BTW , this movement has 2 cannon pinions . The larger one for the minute hand and the smaller one that's the afore mentioned , offset cannon pinion that's used for setting the hands and driving the hour wheel and the large cannon pinion /minute hand via the minute wheel ,

[ricardopalamino]

At first I thought that the cannon pinion was slipping and I did tighten it with a nail clipper adapted for this purpose . That is not the problem and I did not need to , or should not have tightened it .

[ricardopalamino]

19 minutes ago, Alastair said:

Ah--Such a shame when things break like this....

I guess we have all done it, thought something will come free--with a little extra effort. Possibly the reason the O/P's parts broke may have been rust/corrosion/solidified grease that gripped the parts too tightly and wouldn't let go--Gawd knows when those parts were last separated--if ever since it was first made..

A releasing fluid I make up out of 50/50 acetone and transmission-fluid can sometimes free off rusted screws and oddball parts like this, leave to soak in a little overnight on stubborn parts...

 

Thanks Alastair , Hind sight says that you are probably right .

[Cad101]

He has no cannon pinion as the small wheel acts as a cannon pinion. The driving of the hour and minute wheel is done by this small wheel which is friction fitted to the shaft of the third wheel and are prone to wearing over time and need tightening as ordinary cannon pinions do.

[jdm]

14 minutes ago, ricardopalamino said:

 was trying to swap the parts from the donor but snapped both shafts because of improper levering I would think .

How did you were levering? if with a lever on both sides I don't think it should not have snapped so easily. Again I think that the proper way to take this apart these is by pressing on the arbor, not by pulling. Excuse my insistence.  

Edited August 7, 2016 by jdm

[ricardopalamino]

Eggs-actly Cad101 , well said . 

And Alastair , You helped me remember that I still have the 2 small gears with the broken shafts in them . I can try soaking them in the releasing fluid you mentioned  to remove the old shafts in case I have to use them again . If that doesn't work then I can try vinegar or alum . 

Progress ,.....I hope .

 

 

[Alastair]

Well--When something is broken--Anything is worth a try, at least then, you'll only be searching for the shaft part and the big wheel, and not the two parts... More chance of finding a single part than the pair I should imagine.

[ricardopalamino]

7 hours ago, jdm said:

How did you were levering? if with a lever on both sides I don't think it should not have snapped so easily. Again I think that the proper way to take this apart these is by pressing on the arbor, not by pulling. Excuse my insistence.  

Thanks for the input . No room for 2 equal levers .....My bad...I am learning and paying from this issue .

[ricardopalamino]

On August 7, 2016 at 1:56 AM, Cad101 said:

Ah the old offset cannon pinion not easy to remove but can be done with as clockboy says a cannon pinion removal tool. It's easier if you can push down first on whats protruding of the shaft . This was updated in the AS1800 range as a clutch type driving wheel on the third wheel easier to remove and grease with some 9010 Mark shows this in his video how to service a mechanical watch part two near the end . Your problem comes in tightening it if its still too slack after greasing seeing as it needs the correct amount of friction to both move the hands in normal mode and forward the hands in setting mode. If both parts are available to purchase I haven't checked so don't know I would get new ones and use a staking set to fit the small cannon pinion after greasing unless you have anothercscrap movement you want to try. Rogard69 told me of novel way to tighten clutch wheels using a set if nail clippers I inserted a broach the same diametre as the shaft and very gently applied preasure to the collar if you get enough magnification you can see where it was tightened originally but I don't know if this would work here.

Well I just watched  Marks video again , and saw the stacked gears . And as you stated Cad101 , This assembly was updated  . In the video Mark is operating on an AS 1900 , as opposed to my AS 1746 , and the gears and shaft no longer are separated by the plate via the jewel hole . 

  I did get to see how he separated the gears , lubed them , and reassembled them again . Much easer in the updated movement .

[ricardopalamino]

I finally got my parts from Old Swiss Watches , and Thanks to all the members that supported me with the issues I was having with this watch , ...I finally got this watch repaired and running . I just have to put it on the timegrapher and remove the scratch and then polish the crystal .

 

 

The silver dial watch is my donor watch . I broke the  shaft on this one also , just as I did on the first . I ordered the parts to get both movements repaired and a few stems and crowns , so I will have the donor running soon also . 

[Cad101]

Glad to see you've finally got it up nd running Ricardo well done 

[dadistic]

Bravo!

[ricardopalamino]

Mahalo Gents .

[ricardopalamino]

It;s been almost a month since this little journey with this Germinal Voltaire and the AS 1746/47 began , and I am pleased to announce that this little gem is still running properly and keeping good time .  Since finishing the repair i ordered a new watchband for it and it arrived today .                                                                                           

I choose a Hirsch Wild Boar leather band in a very nice Honey Brown color with White contrasting stitching . I proceeded to sand and polish the crystal , gave the crystal and case a spa treatment in the ultra-sonic , re-assembled the watch and installed the new band . I can honestly say that it's looking pretty spiffy .

Once again , Mahalos to all that helped me through this one . I did learn from the experience .

 

[ricardopalamino]

Well , it's a few years later and I came across another AS 1746/47 With the Identical problem of the second hand moving , but not the hour or minute hand , or they work intermittently .

This time I knew it was the same two parts mentioned earlier , The gear whose pinion protrudes through the baseplate  , and the "clamshell Gear " on the dial side of the plate .

The drivetrain side gear was running , but the clamshell gear was slipping . 

I now know that the two gears can't be separated cleanly and reused . I used my hand levers to separate the gears and replaced BOTH gears to get the tight friction fit necessary . The clamshell gear is not made to be reused .

 

 

[ricardopalamino]

They say that the third time is a charm ,...I'll take it .

I pulled out my Yema Meangraf from storage and discovered it had a now familiar symptom ,...The watch is running , the second hand is moving , but the minute and hour hand didn't budge . 

Elementary My Dear , it's a bit of slippage between the drivetrain gear on one side of the drivetrain bridge , and the mated clamshell gear on the other side of the bridge . 

I was down to my last set of new gears , but I got an idea , that if it worked the watch hands would soon fall in line and..........move with out using any new parts .

I got a pair of jewelry side cutters and gave a sleight pinch to the top of the clamshell gear to grab and hang on to the drive train gear .

 

BINGO , we got a winner . the clamshell guy stopped slipping . I could have used a pair of nail clippers instead , but they're in my fishing box ...