ETA 2836 issue

[Danh]

Evening folks

i bought myself an ETA 2836 second hand so I could do a complete strip down following Marks 2824 tutorial. It was not running - so had an issue somewhere.

anyway I followed the strip down, cleaned the parts methodically with my cleaning kit I have purchased. Examined everything thoroughly and nothing jumped out at all except the keyless work, so I replaced those parts.

on reassembly I followed everything step by step and it everything moved beautifully as it should do.

when I replaced the balance I set it off running and got a lovely heart beat for about a minute - then it stopped.

any ideas where I should start to look for the issue?

if I strip the balance so I can manually get to the pallet fork I can tick it by hand by and the escape steps round, put the balance back on it ticks away again for a minute or so and then stops again. The balance seems to want to run, but I feel the pallet fork is not allowing the escape wheel to step round again.

very open to suggestions, my instinct is telling me to think pallet fork area as the gear train moves beautifully until I get around that area.

thanks as always.

[horsetrailer]

Does is stop EVERY minute of you lightly push on the gear train to get it running again? Put a small sharpie mark on the tooth of the 4th wheel and see if it stops in the same place. If so its the 4th wheel and was probably dropped.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sstakoff]

There are many, many reasons that this could happen... If you are certain that with the balance removed, the escapement is functioning adequately - all around, meaning all 15 teeth have passed through both the entry and exit pallets, I would certainly look closely at the balance assembly. It would also be helpful to see a timegraph of the watch as this can sometimes reveal lots of clues. What kind of amplitude are you seeing when the watch runs for about 30 secs??

o Jewels seated properly, spotless endstones, oiled approriately
o Balance staff pivots not damaged
o Hairspring true in the flat and the round
o Watch set in beat
o Guard pin clearance - having the pin rubbing on the safety roller is a good way to stop the watch
o Back to the pallets - proper lock depth, run to the banking, etc
o Roller jewel seated perfectly - not tilted or loose
o Balance staff seated properly - balance not loose and rubbing on any components
o Hairspring not catching on center wheel, etc
o Balance poise

I'm sure I'm missing much!
 

[sstakoff]

Also - I'm assuming that you did not oil the pallet pivots... The pallet moves in a very different motion than a regular pivot and the oil can add friction - probably not enough to stop the watch just yet but it will get worse.

 

[Danh]

@horsetrailer once it stops it will it run again until I strip the balance off again.

@sstakoff thanks for all that, it's not an oil issue, I followed the video step by step, using all the correct oils, but only where required.

i don't have a timeagraph yet, it's on my wish list.

i will work through the rest of your list tomorrow night - very much appreciated 

I will get to the bottom of it eventually, that's why I bought it.

[horsetrailer]

Id bet it's something in the train or the fourth wheel. You didn't say that when it stops the second time around that it stops in the same exact spot. That would indicate a damaged 4th wheel or its pivot

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sstakoff]

This is a REAL long shot.... The 2836 has a setting wheel that is part of the keyless work. This wheel has a very small bevel on one side and this must be inserted bevel up. If not, I believe there will be an added amount of friction that the gear train needs to pull along. I'm not certain about this as I'm going from memory, but I think I had a similar issue in the past. It's at least worth checking out.....

You may also note a not-so-smooth feeling when setting the hands if this wheel is not inserted correctly

Edited July 14, 2016 by sstakoff

[Danh]

Brilliant, thanks guys, will check them tomorrow - I bring my camera back work tomorrow also and take some macro shots also 

best hobby ever

[clockboy]

This is a fault process that I use. I remove the balance assembly & try the pallet operation checking all of the escape wheels teeth etc. If Ok the I remove the pallet folk (after removing power) I then  give the watch a few winds holding a wheel then release to check the train wheels have free movement in all potions.

To summarise it just a slow & methodical elimination process.

[Danh]

Thanks, I appreciate that a lot

[sstakoff]

41 minutes ago, clockboy said:

This is a fault process that I use. I remove the balance assembly & try the pallet operation checking all of the escape wheels teeth etc. If Ok the I remove the pallet folk (after removing power) I then  give the watch a few winds holding a wheel then release to check the train wheels have free movement in all potions.

To summarise it just a slow & methodical elimination process.

Following on this - if you do as clockboy suggests, when you give the watch a few winds and the train starts to spin, watch the escape wheel very closely. When the power runs down and the escape wheel stops, it will typically reverse its direction for just a very, very small distance - maybe 1/4 of a tooth. This is a good indicator of adequate gear train freedom.

[Danh]

Brilliant, thanks

[matabog]

If you set the time forward does the watch start working again? If so, there is a problem in the motion works.

 

Bogdan

[Danh]

Latest update:

i oiled the bottom balance Jewel , rebuilt and it did the same thing, stopped close to a minute, 

i stripped it, wound the centre wheel back to mark it as I had decided to film it running and stopping for you too have a look at. (Made a hand held filming rigg with my iPhone and a lens from my eye ware .)

fitted the balance again and started filming.

it ran and carried on going, that was twenty mins ago

so I don't really know what to do now except leave it going to see what happens??

is there a secret to seperating the balance Jewel, that was a struggle

[clockboy]

It is hard to tell via the vid but it does not seem to have a very good amplitude.  Is the mainspring winding fully without slipping. Just a thought.

[Danh]

Thanks clockboy, the spring winds well and you can feel the tension, I have finished oiling the top Jewell to see if that stopped it again. It's still running strongly so have re resembled the automatic movement and wound it by hand, going to see how long it runs for.

i am beginning to wonder if it may have been the oiling of the bottom balance stone.

time will tell (excuse the pun)

[sstakoff]

5 hours ago, Danh said:

is there a secret to seperating the balance Jewel, that was a struggle

After releasing the shock spring, I use a jewel picker that I purchased from Amazon for $2.50 to remove the jewel. Usually the endstone and the hole jewel are stuck together due to the oil. I usually place the attached jewels into a small jar of cleaning fluid (I typically use a hairspring cleaner like Onedip) and that will normally cause the jewels to separate on their own. You can find the jewel picker here: https://amzn.com/B00K7KEN6K

You could also use some Rodico to lift the jewel out of the watch. Another way to separate the jewels would be to place the whole setting, endstone down, onto a piece of Rodico. The Rodico will hold the endstone down - you can carefully lift the setting off with tweezers.

 

[Danh]

Your awesome too 

[Danh]

Next question if I may, 

would anyone be able to tell me how to slow the watch down, or if it is possible on this mechanism to set it with no equipment (old school)?

its gaining / running at 5 seconds per minute fast. I know this is considerable.

i have searched the net for information on this movement and adjusting it, but drawn a blank.

thanks for any help once more

[Cad101]

Turn the regulating screw by the + & - symbols towards the minus this can be a case of trial and error tho without a timing machine a very small turn will slow it down quiet alot. The regulating lever seems to be set more to the fast side at the moment.

[Danh]

Thanks, appreciate the answer

5 minutes ago, Cad101 said:

Turn the regulating screw by the + & - symbols towards the minus this can be a case of trial and error tho without a timing machine a very small turn will slow it down quiet alot. The regulating lever seems to be set more to the fast side at the moment.

 

[Danh]

Time for an update:

I bought a timeograph and the watch was running at 999+ s/d,

I replaced the balance unit with one from another watch and it slowed the watch down, this told me it was the definitely to do with the hairspring area. 

After watching a few of Marks videos, decided the hairspring needed a much closer inspection, off the watch it appeared fine, but on the watch it did not look right, it appeared to have a bend in it, that was causing the spring to touch the coil down  (see pic)

I then vary carefully straightened the bend in the spring and set about adjusting it on the timeograph, it appears to be running accurately now, or is there anything anyone notices on the read out that i should look at next?

thanks as ever for all your help. 

 

[matabog]

Don't know if I am allowed, but check out the following:

http://www.timekeeperforum.com/forum/threads/adjustment-and-regulation.21105/

The lines are not quite straight (but this is not a new watch) and the amplitude is a bit low (maybe the mainspring is tired).

[Danh]

Thanks Matabog - that's a really interesting and informative read.

i will get a tool and try all that

[jdm]

56 minutes ago, Danh said:

I then vary carefully straightened the bend in the spring and set about adjusting it on the timeograph, it appears to be running accurately now, or is there anything anyone notices on the read out that i should look at next?

Seems like you did a good job. Note the lines are deceiving , the watch is not in beat is off of 5.8 ms, a value that makes lines overlap (it happened to me too), so you have to move the end stud arm. The pattern is excellent and I wouldn't worry too much about the amplitude, after all you're running with an intervened HS.

Edited July 26, 2016 by jdm