English Pocket watch movement?

[rogart63]

A friend of mine need some help. This watch has a broken balance staff. He has been to two different watchmakers and none could help him. So now he going to have a go at it himself. But we nor the watchmakers could tell the movement. They guess it was some kind of AS 137 ? And the other said an English movement?  Anyone recognize it? Sorry but this is all the pictures i have now. If we can remove the balance how should we measure the pivots if we haven't got any? Both broken  

Edited May 9, 2016 by rogart63

[oldhippy]

A few questions first.

Do you have a good lathe suitable for watch work and have you turned anything.

[rogart63]

29 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

A few questions first.

Do you have a good lathe suitable for watch work and have you turned anything.

I am not going to do it. Just helping out as good as i can. I think he is going to see if he can remove the balance staff and see if there is something that could fit. We have some Swedish forum members that are skilled workers at the lathe. But have to remove first? My friend has all the tools he needs to put the balance back again. 

He also has some old balance staffs in his drawer. 

Edited May 9, 2016 by rogart63

[szbalogh]

On 2016. 05. 09. at 10:52 PM, rogart63 said:

I am not going to do it. Just helping out as good as i can. I think he is going to see if he can remove the balance staff and see if there is something that could fit. We have some Swedish forum members that are skilled workers at the lathe. But have to remove first? My friend has all the tools he needs to put the balance back again. 

He also has some old balance staffs in his drawer. 

You have to remove it. Its so tiny that simple measurement wont work, you have to try the parts on the working piece while turning. Moreover, if the broken one is available just use that for measurement! Place it next to the working piece. There are a few videos on youtube how to do it. 

I have the same problem like your friend. Experienced with turning the balance, had 5 tries and the last one is acceptable by size but forget to undercut the balance shoulder. Now i need a lathe to be able to turn between centers to finish the pivots.

You can start from HSS material or from mild steel and carburizing it before pinion finishing. 

Let me informed on Your progress!

 

[rogart63]

Got the balance and the bridge today . So i mounted it in the staking tool and removed the staff . 

[oldhippy]

Has the balance wheel center bar split because your second picture of balance only looks as if it has. If so you are going to need a complete balance.

[clockboy]

If you can identify the movement & size then you might be lucky to just purchase new one. Try  from

http://www.balancestaffs.com

[szbalogh]

1 hour ago, clockboy said:

If you can identify the movement & size then you might be lucky to just purchase new one. Try  from

http://www.balancestaffs.com

Yes, thats the easy way. Sadly my movement has no signs just a 419 number under the balance. I have a guess for the caliber  but dont want to risk it. Turning a new one must be fun and a great challenge

Here is what i have turned @ 0:57.

Looking ugly but its carbon powder baked on the surface @around 800 Celsius. Remember, the whole staff is only 3.5 mm long and made it on the Dremel lathe Somehow i need just to finish the pinions.

Since the balance wheel is riveted on the staff, it is removed usually by cutting the staff under the wheel not by forcing it out. Hovewer, i forced out mine as well

Video 1 for balance staff turning:

Video 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6svZzTBIeM

 

 

Edited May 11, 2016 by szbalogh

[rogart63]

2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Has the balance wheel center bar split because your second picture of balance only looks as if it has. If so you are going to need a complete balance.

That is probably the light that causing that effect . There is no split in the center bar.

[oldhippy]

Two good catalogs that are a must for identification are these two. Most old watches this includes pocket watches can be identified by there keyless work so you need to take of the hands and dial and upload a photo. You never know someone on here might be able to help you out if they have these catalogs which are 

Flume identification movement catalogue 

Besrfit identification movement catalogue

You see these come up on ebay if you are lucky buy both.

I hope this helps.

 

 

 

[clockboy]

Another book I have found real handy for identifying pocket watches & it is still being published is

"Complete price guide to Watches" by Richard Gilbert,Tome Engle,Cooksey Shugart.

 

[oldhippy]

clockboy I haven't come across this one. A nice recommendation.

[clockboy]

Found this looks like it could be a Waltham see pic.grades, 902 (19j) ,922 (23j) & 983 (17j) all are in the same style.

 

[rogart63]

Interesting thanks clockboy and oldhippy. I will take a look at that. Have some more pictures. And my friend is measuring the movement right about now. So we can see what ligne it is? 

It has a kind of strange looking keyless work. Perlage and a reed's adjustment on the balance bridge. 

[rogart63]

Size of the movement is 43 mm . Should that be 19 ligne in watch terms? 

[oldhippy]

42.864mm is a 19 Ligne. That's about right.

[rogart63]

Asked David at vintagewatchstraps? But he never seen that movement before. And he looked through bestfit and smartchild books. But can't find any similar movements. 

[szbalogh]

5 minutes ago, rogart63 said:

Asked David at vintagewatchstraps? But he never seen that movement before. And he looked through bestfit and smartchild books. But can't find any similar movements. 

At that time many watchmaker companies bought the movements and made some modifications to it. Like mine Stowa above. They have different shaped bridges, keyless works or finish, but the critical parts are the same.

Try find the movement from the other end! Measure the broken staff exactly, find similar ones in the database and finally check the movements associated with the possible staffs.

[rogart63]

Anyone have the Ronda CD. Where you can search on sizes? Thinking of  buying it from redrosteruk . But i don't have a cd player on my computer so should need it on a memorystick. Is it any good? Is it worth the trouble to fix it over to memory stick? 

[syfre]

Ronda staffs by size is in the download section of cousins uk

 

[rogart63]

4 hours ago, syfre said:

Ronda staffs by size is in the download section of cousins uk

 

 

On 5/12/2016 at 2:44 PM, szbalogh said:

At that time many watchmaker companies bought the movements and made some modifications to it. Like mine Stowa above. They have different shaped bridges, keyless works or finish, but the critical parts are the same.

Try find the movement from the other end! Measure the broken staff exactly, find similar ones in the database and finally check the movements associated with the possible staffs.

Thanks to all for your help . szbalogh and syfre . Did take the measures i had an looked on Cousinsuk ronda staffs. Found one that was as near as i could come. It was a Postala. Googled postala and hit the nail riight in the middle. Made my day. http://bdwf.net/forum/showthread.php?t=72531