Family Heirloom Question

[SeveP64]

The pocket watch pictured below has been in the family for generations and the hallmark on the case dates it at 1888. My dad's had it for as long as I can remember and it's never worked in that time. From what I've been able to work out it's a fusee watch, but I can't for the life of me figure out how a chain would be fitted. There's nothing on the side of the mainspring barrel where it would attach and, as you can see, no cone.

 

Is this indeed a fusee watch? The fact that the wheel next to the mainspring barrel is actually meshed with it, makes me wonder how it would work.

 

It's also missing its balance cock, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's been ratted for parts sometime back in the dim, distant past.

 

[bobm12]

Hi Steve,

 

My take on the problem:

 

The gerbil died a long time ago, they only live 5 to 8 years. It probably used to run in that open cage....

 

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist! :)

 

It does look like a gerbil's wheel. I've never seen a watch like that before. I'm sure that if fixed it will be very valuable not just for the movement type but for the historical value. Being a heirloom I bet it will also have a very high sentimental value.

 

Hopefully, some of our knowledgeable members know their way about those movements and can give both of us some valuable information. 

 

I'll follow this thread with a lot of interest. Looks like an unusual piece with quite a lot of learning waiting to happen!

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[SeveP64]

It does look like a gerbil wheel, doesn't it.  :D

I think it's actually a fairly common watch from that period. I'm following a few on eBay at the moment, trying to get a cheap donor to fix this one. It's certainly a learning experience, as I've only worked on Seikos, Bulovas and a few Soviet watches so far, all of them wristwatches.

 

Steve

[bobm12]

Absolutely, that's my experience too. It's fascinating to see the old ways and even though sometimes simple by today's standards, -- complication wise -- the workmanship and finished product is amazing. I wish you luck with the donor movements and please keep us posted with your progress.

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[Geo]

It is a fusee movement. There are so many things missing, spring arbour, barrel cap to name a couple, and the spring barrel is in the wrong way round. When the barrel is fitted correctly, the gear on it will be well away from the fusee wheel and unless I'm mistaken, will be for a click to hold against. This allows pre-tension to be applied to the mainspring.

[SeveP64]

Geo,

 

The arbour and barrel cap are both with the other parts I'd already removed. The click is on the other side of the movement. Here's a pic.

 

 

[oldhippy]

George has said it all there's not much to add apart from saying if you want it fixed it should go to someone who specialises in pocket watches, it will be very expensive completely outstripping the value of the watch money wise, but it's a family heirloom which to you can make all the difference.

[JohnR725]

I think you'll find this is not a fusee watch It only looks like one. We need a watch historian to get a proper answer on this one. So  at one time you had fusee watches the purpose of which to get equal power from the mainspring. The mainsprings were of very poor quality.. Then the early escapement's were very sensitive to  the amount of power applied as it would affect timekeeping considerably more than a modern watch.

 

So I'm sure that there is an technical term for this type of watch. Basically they keep what they have and they just upgrade. The old escapement is gone replaced by an English lever largely keeping everything more or less the same as it was before. On these semi-handmade watches they can keep the main plates they only have to change the little stuff.Then  the mainspring barrel now has teeth around the outside like a modern conventional barrel which cannot drive the center wheel due to its location.. So instead it drives a phantom fusee wheel which is usually made out of solid brass.

 

It's one of the really fascinating things with looking at watches the evolution and so many different ways to solve a problem. So a transition watch moving from previous technology to new technology making use of what they have. Unfortunately for someone purchasing one of these unless you can see the side of the movement you have zero idea whether it actually Is a fusee watch or not. I've seen these before because when fusee movements were more affordable I would pick them up only to be surprised not to have a fusee watch.

 

 

[Geo]

Very interesting John, the plot thickens!

[SeveP64]

I'm hoping John's right. I'm still in the process of cleaning it all up at the moment and I have a couple of donor movements on their way. Once I start putting it back together, we'll see what I have. 

 

I'll keep you posted.

 

Steve

[JohnR725]

So was looking through my library of books and can't find any reference to watches like this yet I know they exist. One of the ways I knew they existed is I had to go through my watches and find them. Conveniently everything up until today had their fusee chains. Just needed to look at another location and came up with what I'm looking for.

So lots of pictures three watches all conveniently look like fusee watches. The one on the left is not. This is just your standard single mainspring watch. Then the side view where you can see the single mainspring barrel.

So the center watch and the one on the right-hand side casually look like fusee watches which is why I would have purchased them. You’ll notice that side view they appear to have two mainspring barrels? Then some mysteries and similarities. Similarities are they look very similar and at the same time do not. The one on the right-hand side looks older balance wheel and older style. The dial the second disc is a separate physical disk and in my case very separate because the glue is disintegrated and fell out. The finishing on the plates is outstanding but that’s also the final watchmaker would’ve done that. The dial feet the dial is pinned in place the same as with an older watch. The center watch gets disassembled the dial is one piece. Side dial screws. Then a mystery for this watch notice the dial says it’s in English lever but look at the escape wheel where the pointy teeth? Then the one on the right does have pointy teeth like it’s supposed to.

Then your reference to donor watches what were you thinking? The reason for this question is at this point in time are these considered handmade watches or machine made watches? I think the reality is you going to find their little of both. It’s really not up until relatively modern times that you have 100% interchangeability.

So the center watch the express English lever and I have no idea what the meaning of express is gets disassembled. Conventional T end mainspring. The serial number conveniently marked on all of the plates either the full number or the last three digits. Strange though the main plate full serial number on both sides.  The  balance wheel the serial numbers been scratched  onto the arms the same as you find on American pocket watches.  That is unless of course somebody has swapped your balance wheel which is quite common on American pocket watches also unfortunately.

 

Then the for lack of better terminology phantom fusee barrel. Solid brass the arbors been pressed in and the gear appears to have been soldered in place rather than cut in place?
 

[SeveP64]

Thanks John. That looks very much like the one I have.

 

The main reason for getting a donor watch was for the balance cock, but I wasn't sure what other parts I might need. Looking at your watch, I suspect I may need to replace the pallet jewels.

 

Steve

[syfre]

In my opinion , it's a double barrel watch, probably to have a longer run time, may be 8 days watch or someting like that.

 

A fusee is totally different, the purpose of a fusee is to deliver a constant force during the detent of the mainspring using a coned first wheel coupled by a chain to the barrel (the first wheel on a conventional train is the barrel)

 

see here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusee_%28horology%29

 

George Daniels used double barrel, you can see some example in its book "Watchmaking" (the most valuable watchmaking book ever !)