Mainspring will not stay hooked to arbor

[arron]

Hi guys.  Everytime I put the lid back onto the barrel the mainspring hole comes off the arbor hook.  Prior to placing the lid each time, I turn the arbor with a pin vice to make sure it's on and I've even tried keeping tension on the arbor and spring while I put the lid on to no avail.  I've tried about a dozen times.  The end coil looks fairly tight on the arbor to me.  Any ideas?  Thank you.

Ball 999B 16s, 21J, serial 1B7401. 

[Nucejoe]

 The spring looks unlevel around the arbour, raised somewhat on one side.   I wonder if the lid presses on the spring thus unhooks the eye.

 

[arron]

hmmm.  interesting.  I'll check.  Thanks for the suggestion.

[caseback]

It looks like the arbor barely touches 180 deg of the inner coil. When taken out of the barrel, is the mainspring flat? If not, the arbor will be at an angle. Putting the lid on will then pop it out.

Edited August 17, 2024 by caseback
Correct typo

[watchweasol]

Hi. The center coil needs reshaping with round nose pliers so that the spring fits snugly around the arbour, take your time and be careful.

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 hours ago, arron said:

Hi guys.  Everytime I put the lid back onto the barrel the mainspring hole comes off the arbor hook.  Prior to placing the lid each time, I turn the arbor with a pin vice to make sure it's on and I've even tried keeping tension on the arbor and spring while I put the lid on to no avail.  I've tried about a dozen times.  The end coil looks fairly tight on the arbor to me.  Any ideas?  Thank you.

Ball 999B 16s, 21J, serial 1B7401. 

The spring should be wrapped around a littlt more. As soon as you start to wind it in the coils are probably pushing that gap at the arbor over to the hooking side.

Releasing the hook before the next coil has chance to wrap around.

[AndyGSi]

Are you sure it's the correct spring as it looks a little small to me compared to the barrel size.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, AndyGSi said:

Are you sure it's the correct spring as it looks a little small to me compared to the barrel size.

 

12 hours ago, arron said:

Ball 999B 16s, 21J, serial 1B7401

We get all the specifications and we don't get a mainspring number? Yes the mainspring looks a little not quite right.

Then it looks like a blued steel mainspring? Usually they will wrap quite nicely around the arbor. It's the white Springs city have issues with where they weren't actually designed for this watch or any other pocket watch for that matter and they can sometimes be a challenge. It also one a look at the arbor itself and make sure your hook still looks okay and as this is probably a substitute mainspring make sure that the part that goes on that book is actually sized right. Sometimes aftermarket springs can have technical issues of not quite fitting correctly. Because they weren't actually made for this watch in the first place.

Which is where it be nice to get a mainspring number that he used.

[arron]

I appreciate all the comments and will work on each one to try and solve the problem. @Nucejoe was right that the hole end of the MS is raised up about 1 mm when I flatten out the rest of the MS by hand.  See pic.  I've tried a few different ways of bending the MS with pliers but haven't figured out how to get the end to go down.  Maybe I didn't give enough force.  Any suggestions?  

To answer the questions that were posited: This MS came with the watch so I don't know what the part number is.  It looks like a modern one though because it's got the S curve and is not blued.  Without putting hand pressure on the MS it isn't level and the middle of the spring is probably 1/4 inch in the air.  The arbor hook looks good under mag.  

I'd like to get the watch going with this MS if I can, but if not I'll buy a new one if that's the issue.  I bought this watch a few years ago at a local live auction.  I didn't even realize what I had until much later; then got excited to have a RR grade PW.  Only to find out that it had innumerable problems that I've been grappling with since April (it clearly had been dropped with some force, and probably kicked to boot)--so glad I don't make a living off this hobby because I'd be broke and my children would be barefoot.  ha.  Thank you.

[AndyGSi]

So if the spring is bad and you don't know if it's even the correct one then is there any point in continuing with it?

[oldhippy]

No wonder you are having trouble that spring needs to be replaced its a mess.  

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, arron said:

modern one

The problem with modern springs are there really hard to bend and you have to be extremely careful not to break them. They're basically hardened to the shape they are and they are very resilient to being bent into something else.

2 hours ago, arron said:

so glad I don't make a living off this hobby because I'd be broke and my children would be barefoot.

I'm glad you recognize that is the unfortunate problem of vintage watches where you never quite know what you're going to get. Then even if everything looks perfect well tomorrow might bring another day where you find a problem

2 hours ago, arron said:

I didn't even realize what I had until much later

The good and the bad of your purchase is it's basically a Hamilton a very nice Hamilton. The bad is it's a ball Hamilton and we don't know what they changed if anything?

I'm rather surprised the pocketwatch database actually has something?

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/ball/1B7401

Then the problem with a watch like this would be somebody servicing the watch wouldn't actually understand what they have and they probably shoved in a mainspring that they thought would work and you probably have the wrong mainspring. Which brings up the problem of what exactly is the right mainspring?

 

 

 

 

 

[arron]

Thanks John and everyone.  This one had two broken hole jewels and a bent wheel tooth, bent wheel, and broken balance staff and a fair amount of surface corrosion on the ratchet and winding wheels.  I still don't even know if I can get it running after fixing everything except the MS.

Anywho, I did find a MS in the cas ker catalogue but I'm wondering if I should get it.  It's for a Hamilton 16s.  The measurements match up with the old MS except that the height of the new one is 2.85 and the height of the old one is 2.70.  The new one will fit (width-wise) because the barrel is 3.55 deep (if I subtract the lid and .1mm for clearance that gets me to 3.10).

Is that going to work?  The only concern I can think of, as a novice, is whether the hole in the MS end sits at the right height from the barrel bottom to latch onto the arbor hook without lifting the MS off the bottom of the barrel.  Or maybe I'm over thinking it.

 

[AndyGSi]

What's the length & end termination of both the spring you've got and the one you're looking at?

I don't know what end termination it should be but looking here the JA-204 looks like a possibility.

https://www.ofrei.com/page299.html

[arron]

Thank you @AndyGSi. I'll check it out.

[JohnR725]

22 hours ago, arron said:

Anywho, I did find a MS in the cas ker catalogue but I'm wondering if I should get it.  It's for a Hamilton 16s.  The measurements match up with the old MS except that the height of the new one is 2.85 and the height of the old one is 2.70.  The new one will fit (width-wise) because the barrel is 3.55 deep (if I subtract the lid and .1mm for clearance that gets me to 3.10).

14 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

What's the length & end termination of both the spring you've got and the one you're looking at?

I don't know what end termination it should be but looking here the JA-204 looks like a possibility.

https://www.ofrei.com/page299.html

I would've been curious about the length of the spring that looks incorrect in the barrel

J204 looks interesting doesn't it? Mainly because the description is very amusing as it will fit both the 992 and the nine to be which is impossible?

Then of course there is an interesting question I quoted up above what end do you have? Yes for American pocket watch springs that is vitally important.

So let's assume that the 999B is based on the Hamilton 992B which also brings up an interesting problem of which mainspring? Oh I suppose I should elaborate there are actually two separate mainsprings for the 992B the standard one that everybody uses or the modern alloy that is slightly longer in addition to being slightly better. They end up with almost a 50 hour run time versus a shorter run time and much much better timekeeping as well as peculiar places where to mainsprings exist that the length is different which normally wouldn't occur but does and no indication as to whether there was actually a different barrel to accommodated because doesn't appear to be. But we can assume that the 999B which is supposed been improvement of the 992B That ideally the longer spring would be preferred.

I snipped out an image notice that the 992 uses either the number 317 which is a T end spring at 2.83 mm width or the 534 with its interesting end but still the same width of 2.83 versus the same end for the 992B which is some form of brace type end at 3 mm. Which is why the description of the tool for mainspring is interesting because it doesn't seem to take into account that there is a difference of with some of the various 992's.

Then looking at another reference it looks like the tool for is the correct spring if you're replacing the steel spring and you're not concerned about the extra running time and that is providing of the whole of the barrel will accommodate this as we didn't get see the end of the spring but I'm just guessing. Oh and I'm also guessing that whoever put the spring In previously had no idea what they were doing which is why it's the wrong spring.

Then timing was interesting you just missed something on eBay but he typically lists them from time to time. Here is the link it's the 60 hour modern Hamilton alloy and as you can see the spring has a beautiful back curve which produces a really nice linear power curve.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145946109487

[AndyGSi]

@JohnR725 Interesting that the chart does show the DB end from the JA-204 as a possible for the 992B.

[arron]

@JohnR725 that's very helpful.  The one I pulled out is a T end.  I was able to find a MS on ebay that matches the measurements of the 317 from your chart (except for 1/4 inch longer), although that 60 hour spring from ebay you mentioned would have been cool.  Just before hitting the "buy now" button I tried tweaking my MS end again and voila I got it to catch and hold onto the arbor and actually got the watch running--which goes to show that even I can't screw up the quality of a good Ball RR grade PW.  So before I order the MS I'm going to test it out with the current one.  I'm taking it apart again to get off some more of the rust and corrosion I found.  I didn't want to spend too much time doing that unless and until I knew I could get it running.  The watch was surely abused.  If it turns out alright I'll definitely keep it in my collection.  Thanks again to everyone that chimed in.

[AndyGSi]

1 hour ago, arron said:

although that 60 hour spring from ebay you mentioned would have been cool.

I think if you look at the eBay listing you'll see the one he was selling is the JA204 with the DB end.

[JohnR725]

17 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

I think if you look at the eBay listing you'll see the one he was selling is the JA204 with the DB end

If you look at the descriptions the 204 is 23 1/2 inches long versus the 60 hour which is 29 1/2 inches. But yes both ends are identical which is there a DB end versus?

 

1 hour ago, arron said:

The one I pulled out is a T end

Of course the question is the one that you pulled out was a T end and we agreed it was wrong slid question is is that actually what goes in the barrel or is it the DB end as there is a difference let me get images.

The DB end is preferred over the T as it's a nice  the T part goes into a slot rather than a round hole In the brace Part holds it in place so it's unlikely to ever come out in other words is a much more secure.

This does bring up the interesting problem of the 999B which I thought was based on the 992B appears to have variations which is one of the problems of things based on things like the T end barrel seems a bit strange? Although the actual quote above was the original spring that was found in there was a T end and we never did see the barrel so maybe the barrel does have a slot.

mainspring Cas-Kar Catalog 2014.PDF

[arron]

@JohnR725that makes sense to me now.  It does appear that the barrel and lids have slots, not a round hole.  The one in the barrel is a lot longer than the one in the lid.

[Neverenoughwatches]

34 minutes ago, arron said:

@JohnR725that makes sense to me now.  It does appear that the barrel and lids have slots, not a round hole.  The one in the barrel is a lot longer than the one in the lid.

The original slot in the lid for the t brace is there just not used.

[JohnR725]

26 minutes ago, arron said:

It does appear that the barrel and lids have slots

It's amazing how many questions can be answered with one picture or may be two. Yes that is the correct barrel for Hamilton 992B Which your watch is based on unfortunately that is not the right mainspring.

11 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The original slot in the lid for the t brace is there just not used.

Yes it does look like somebody did not do what they were supposed to do which is unfortunately a classic problem with anything vintage and people just don't know what they're doing. Then compliments of eBay we get a nice picture of how things are supposed to look other than the fact the barrel looks a bit well it's seen better days but still were just looking at how the mainspring is. So you can very clearly see the mainspring fills up the slot

Then on the other side maybe it's just the image but it looks like the lid is not quite down eight it's supposed to be flush you shouldn't see the raised more like this. Then the mainspring of course is supposed to go into the slot not the square opening which is sometimes used to pry the lid off.