Smiths Everest Cal 01 04 timegrapher - why such different horizontal and vertical rates?

[mikepilk]

This has got me puzzled. This Smiths cal 01 04 is running strongly, but the vertical rates are all slow, and all over the place.

So I thought I'd do some dynamic balancing. The pic is from my balancing spreadsheet.
You can see (fully wound) on the left good amplitude in all position, and DU +5 and DD +9s OK. But all vertical rates slow.

With 57s between Crown up (-32s) and crown down (-89s), and slow in vertical positions, I was expecting a heavy spot on the balance.
But with 160° amplitude to determine the heavy spot (see pic on right), all the numbers are similar, suggesting no heavy spot 

I demagnetised. If coils were sticking when vertical, you would expect a higher rate.
The hairspring looks to be 'breathing' correctly.

Usually when vertical rates are a little slower, I suspect too much gap at the regulator pins. But this is a lot, and the pins look OK to me.

What do you think?

 

 

 

 

 

[Endeavor]

Two things, perhaps one more important then the other.

As far as I know, dynamic poising should only be done if a watch runs good. A quote from the "How to" series Dynamic poising;

"If a watch runs well—it is clean, free of flaws, and running with good amplitude—it can usually be adjusted to be more accurate across different positions".

https://adjustingvintagewatches.com/category/dynamic-poising/

If in vertical positions a watch runs only between 140-180, that's IMHO too low for dynamic poising. Also, at those lower (140 degrees) amplitudes, one has to question the reliability of the timegrapher readings (At least with my Chinese Weishi 1000).

The other, but a very minor point, and that doesn't explain the low vertical position amplitudes, is the hairspring breathing in the regulator pin/boot. It seems that the hairspring barely loosens itself from the regulator pin. It doesn't seem touching the boot at all? Again,  a minor detail and perhaps the angle under which the video is taken?

The hairspring seems to run flat and concentric

Hmmm

 

[mikepilk]

20 minutes ago, Endeavor said:

If in vertical positions a watch runs only between 140-180, that's IMHO too low for dynamic poising.

If you look at the numbers on the left, (heading "Fully Wound")it is running above 253° in all vertical positions. Which is good.

In dynamic poising, you then reduce the amplitude to about 140 - 180° to find the heavy spot. Those are the numbers on the right (heading "Amplitude 140-180°).   I reduced the amplitude to about 160°, and the numbers are the timings.

With the crown at the fastest position, the heavy spot is below the balance staff. 

[Nucejoe]

Unfortunately videos didn't open on my tablet. 

  Amplitude drop in vertical positions is expected cuz pivots ride on jewels ( hole jewels), therefore friction increase thus lower amp, but 160 is uncommonly low, so

Are numbers regarded as valid with 160 amp? 

 Side shakes algebrically add up in vertical positions, which can result in heavy pallete lock, affect guard pin' roller table clearance.

I would give another clean to jewels in escapement plus check side shakes therein. 

Rgds

 

[mikepilk]

The problem is NOT about amplitude drop in vertical positions - that is expected. The amplitudes for vertical positions  CU/CD/CL are 265,253,260° - all very good.

The 160° amplitude is BECAUSE I SET IT to determine the heavy spot on the balance.

The question is, why, when the horizontal rates are +5/+9s, are the vertical rates all so slow -32s, -46s, -89s ?

[rehajm]

...I know you can cripple a W10 if the spring for the center pinion isn't centered but this calibre isn't set up the same is it?

Is the escape wheel cap jewel arrangement running a bit dry in vertical positions? 

Edited March 11 by rehajm

[mikepilk]

There is no spring on the centre pinion, but I'll check the cap jewel

[Endeavor]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

If you look at the numbers on the left, (heading "Fully Wound")it is running above 253° in all vertical positions. Which is good.

Sorry, misunderstood

 

[mikepilk]

2 minutes ago, Endeavor said:

Sorry, misunderstood

Thought you had. Dynamic balancing is interesting, but you can spend a lot of time getting a watch right.

The link you posted is my main reference point. Worth a read if you are interested.

What I really need are some small timing washers. Very hard to find. I've been looking on ebay for ages, but it's usually pocket watch washers that come up. 

[rehajm]

 

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

The link you posted is my main reference point. Worth a read if you are interested.

I’ve used that series of posts often. They take several passages from Jendritzki- a book I’ve found to be extremely valuable including so many diagnostic checks and fouls I haven’t seen mentioned anywhere. Several pages on regulators- pins, boots, the fancy ones, for example.

Edited March 11 by rehajm

[nickelsilver]

The hairspring is favoring the inside pin, but I don't think that's the issue. How does it look from the top with power off? From the vid there could be a chance it's just touching the stud at high amplitude, that would cause a significant gain, which would show up as a significant loss at lower amplitude; what's the rate horizontal at low amplitude? Sometimes there's a bit of spring sticking out the stud that can get bent toward the spring body and touch.

[mikepilk]

17 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

How does it look from the top with power off?

You could have found it!  The hairspring was OK, but at some stage I must have touched the terminal coil and not noticed. It's hard to see under the cock, it's a big one (),  but It's bunched up on the side of the stud - see stationary pic below. It looks like the coils could be touching each other at some point at high amplitude. When vertical they separate out more, hence the slower rate. 

That explains why the rates look so consistent at very low amplitude.

How did I not notice that 

I feel foolish now, D'oh

[rehajm]

Haha- that’s a good catch- no look even…

…I have a Venus that I think is similarly touching somewhere once it gets to higher amplitudes. There’s a suspect burr on the collet next to the first coil but I can’t see if its hitting in situ…

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Unfortunately videos didn't open on my tablet. 

  Amplitude drop in vertical positions is expected cuz pivots ride on jewels ( hole jewels), therefore friction increase thus lower amp, but 160 is uncommonly low, so

Are numbers regarded as valid with 160 amp? 

 Side shakes algebrically add up in vertical positions, which can result in heavy pallete lock, affect guard pin' roller table clearance.

I would give another clean to jewels in escapement plus check side shakes therein. 

Rgds

 

The low amplitude is specifically chosen Joe. Both low amplitudes below 220° and high amplitudes above 220° will amplify any out of balance of the wheel, making it easier to find. There wlll come a point of too low an amplitude that makes the readings unreliable, too much portion of the swing taken up by the escapement. 

[Nucejoe]

14 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The low amplitude is specifically chosen Joe. Both low amplitudes below 220° and high amplitudes above 220° will amplify any out of balance of the wheel, making it easier to find. There wlll come a point of too low an amplitude that makes the readings unreliable, too much portion of the swing taken up by the escapement. 

More embaressing is ; that wasn't the only point of Mikes post I misunderstood, matey.

I think I best .     and do more reading.

Ree Guards. 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

More embaressing is ; that wasn't the only point of Mikes post I misunderstood, matey.

I think I best .     and do more reading.

Ree Guards. 

 

 

Some extra reading never hurts, no need to isolate Joe but sometimes its nice to sit in a quiet chair away from all distractions for a few hours. Nev posted  a download of a good read a few days ago, maybe you picked it up. 

[nickelsilver]

42 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Some extra reading never hurts, no need to isolate Joe but sometimes its nice to sit in a quiet chair away from all distractions for a few hours. Nev posted  a download of a good read a few days ago, maybe you picked it up. 

Did you just tell Joe to sit in the corner?

[Neverenoughwatches]

22 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Did you just tell Joe to sit in the corner?

As if i would do such a thing

[nevenbekriev]

5 hours ago, mikepilk said:

You could have found it!  The hairspring was OK, but at some stage I must have touched the terminal coil and not noticed. It's hard to see under the cock, it's a big one (),  but It's bunched up on the side of the stud - see stationary pic below. It looks like the coils could be touching each other at some point at high amplitude. When vertical they separate out more, hence the slower rate. 

That explains why the rates look so consistent at very low amplitude.

How did I not notice that 

I feel foolish now, D'oh

OK, but did Uou prove this? It is important to know for sure, not only to guess.

In the videos the hairspring seems not well centererd to the collet

Edited March 11 by nevenbekriev

[mikepilk]

You are right @nevenbekriev, it is not well centred when static. It was, and I hadn't noticed the change. I was only looking at the hairspring in motion. I'll take it off tomorrow and get it properly centred. 

[VWatchie]

9 hours ago, Endeavor said:

the hairspring breathing in the regulator pin/boot. It seems that the hairspring barely loosens itself from the regulator pin. It doesn't seem touching the boot at all?

As you say, hard to tell looking at the video. It needs to be assessed in 3D from various angles. Anyway, it reminded me of this post which I have found useful. Probably a bit too elementary for most of you. Nevertheless...

 

[Endeavor]

Not the case with your watch, but as for the hairspring "breathing", I do like the Etachron system a lot. One can turn the stud so that the hairspring runs exactly in the center/middle of the regulator, touching either side equally. One can reduce the gap of the regulator so that the duration at which the balance wheel slows down gets if even shorter.

Not having the Etachron, you have to manipulate the hairspring (and if required the distance between pin/boot) to achieve the same result / effect.

Glad you found the cause of your problem

 

Edited March 12 by Endeavor