Broken incablock spring on balance cock

[Zedster]

Hi, all

I'm in a pickle with two problems. I'm trying to get an old Roamer MST 521 back up and running, this was given to me by a friend.  The movement went through the watch cleaning machine but later I noticed a lot of what looked like old dried oil on the balance jewel spring which wasn't removed after the wash. It turns out this substance is more like dried treacle and very stubborn to remove.  Anyway, when I tried to remove the shock spring it broke and I had hardly touched the damn thing. From the picture does it mean I will have to remove the setting as what's left of the spring doesn't want to come out? The other problem, with the jewel out, is when I tighten down the balance cock the hairspring stops so I'm assuming there's loads of this dried substance under the setting. I've socked the balance overnight in Bergeon B dip but this won't dissolve the gunk. My plan is to remove the hairspring and try and clean things up with a fiberglass pen and lighter fuel, scary stuff for a beginner but something needs to be done. That would then just leave the broken incablock spring to deal with.  Any advice would be greatly appreciated for a stressed beginner. 

Also, from Cousins it appears I need a incablock spring 974.03 which is also for an ETA 7001. If that could be confirmed that would also be appreciated.

[Nucejoe]

 Balance complete = balance + hairspring ought to detached from balance cock, no need to seperate hairspring from balance. 

Cap stone should come loose in a very hot water bath in unltrasonic.

In case you don't have ultrasonic cleaning machine, try swirling the liquid in a glass bottle.

[Zedster]

Thanks for the reply. Sorry, I should have said balance complete so I will remove that in one piece.  Sorry, but I didn't understand your comment saying "Cap stone should come loose........" The cap stone is out, its getting what's left of the broken shock spring out that I'm not sure about.

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, Zedster said:

getting what's left of the broken shock spring out that I'm not sure about.

Regulator arm and mobile stud carrier must be uninstalled, setting housing remains in balance cock.

This would give you a bit more space to reach broken bits of lyre shock spring. You might need to dress the sharp point of a sewing needle thin enough to reach/ manipulate broken pieces out of the groove.

Clean, slide the replacement lyre spring in the groove, re-instal regulator and stud holder arms.

Good luck

 

 

 

 

[Zedster]

That's great thanks for getting back to me  

Before I get the courage to start taking bits apart I'm cleaning the whole assembly with lighter fuel in the ultrasonics cleaner. Question is, can I use temperature for the sonics and if so how high, second how long is it safe to leave the assembly in the lighter fuel to try and dissolve the gunk?  For the first attempt I ran it for 20 minutes and then tried the balance in the movement and manged to screw it down this time but it wasn't running to well, if I slightly lift the cock then full steam ahead. I could still see crud on the pivot where it comes through the setting hole and just below it.  

[Nucejoe]

6 hours ago, Zedster said:

 tried the balance in the movement and manged to screw it down this time but it wasn't running to well, if I slightly lift the cock then full steam ahead. I could still see crud on the pivot where it comes through the setting hole and just below it.  

Have you removed the     hole-jewel-chaton  assembly ?  you can push it out  and give it more bath in ultrasonic, can't think of better way to remove crud out of chaton. 

Soaking chaton assembly in lighter fluid four a day wont hurt it, not even in ultrasonic.

Do you peg holes of the jewels.

To peg the pivots, stick pivots  in a wooden toothpic, turn the tooth pic,  dip the tooth pic in lighter fluid, and stick pivots in wetted tooth pic &  turn .

With a mild puff of air by puffer, oscilator should oscilate freely at least for thirty seconds, ideally up to sixty seconds.

Looks like you can't overclean these chaton-jewel assembly, no worry clean in ultrasonic as much as you like.

No expert so far as temperature, have seen folks trying forty to sixty celcius degrees.

Good luck Pal.

 

[Zedster]

Thanks again for getting back to me, its really appreciated. The picture in my first post shows how far I've got with removing the jewel and chaton. I've given the balance complete, still attached to the cock another 30 minutes soak and ultrasonic. Its looking a lot better but I can still see a lump of crud on the main pivot saft just before it enterers the hole in the cock and I think that that's causing the issue when I tighten the screw now. I'm soaking the assembly over night in lighter fuel and will sonic clean again tomorrow. if that fails I will take a deep breath and remove the complete balance and take it from there. To be honest, I think I will need to do that anyway as I've seen a few videos showing that you have to push out the Jewel setting to be able to replace the incablock spring and I don't have the tools to do that if its a tight press fit

As far as pegging the jewel holes yes I done all that before the initial clean of the movement.

I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow, thanks again

[Nucejoe]

  MST521 is old in-house, so impulse jewel is likely to have been shellaced onto the roller, and

 lighter fluid removes shellac   IN ULTRASONIC,  

which means you might loose shellac off impulse jewel in ultrasonic.

   There is no need to remove the whole setting.

 REGULATOR ARM  &   STUD, must be removed from the cock anyway, to fit the lyre spring in, it also provides a bit of space to reach broken pieces. 

Balance cock provides something to hold down the assembly with, when fitting lyre spring, so you want the setting remained in balance cock.

 

[Zedster]

Hi, Nuejoe,

Progress so far. I removed the balance complete which wasn't too bad to do after all, I don't know what all the fuzz was about. I managed to find a video where the guy removed one and said about the cover over the regulator pin just needs to be turned with a screw driver to release the hair spring, he even mentioned nobody ever mentions that in any videos as if its a trade secret.

Anyway, it all went through the ultrasonic without any problems, and it was in lighter fuel. I hand cleaned the assembly as well and put it all back together. Still the damned thing wont run when tightened down to I'm going to go back and strip out the pallet fork so only the balance is in play. I'll have a look at the end shack when tightened down and see what its like. 

As for getting out the broken bit of lyre spring ( thanks for the correct name) there's no way its coming out without removing the setting, I hope I'm using the correct name but its the center piece in my first picture. Looking from the under side there's no caps access points nothing only the bottom of the setting. I tried to push it out but its a press fit and tight. The Cronoglide site has a vid on Incablock settings and he demonstrates how the lyre spring is fitted after the setting has been removed. 

Anyway, I'll go back to basic tomorrow and see if I can figure out what the hell is going, watch this space!

[Nucejoe]

Hi there, 

A link where you can find names of components in incabloc shock system.

https://www.great-british-watch.co.uk/watch-anti-shock-settings/

Setting also called   "bloc "    "chaton housing"   and  ,,,,many other names .

THERE IS NO NEED TO REMOVE THE BLOC=SETTING, TO FIT LYRE SPRING .

REMOVING THE REGULATOR AND STUD ARM, IS ALL THATS NEEDED TO FIT THE LYRE SPRING.

A broken piece of lyre spring slides in groove, as a tool ,  to remove the broken piece thats stuck in grooves.

 

Edited March 5 by Nucejoe

[Zedster]

Hi, Nucejoe

Quick update for you. I managed to get hold of a donor movement and replaced the whole balance assembly, with cock, and now it runs okay so that indicates there is a problem with the original assembly. I put the old one in the donor movement and it doesn't run.  I'm not beaten on this and determined to fix it whatever time it takes, I can then get the doner movement up and running. 

Thanks for the Caps about removing the regulator and stud arms and I apologize it took so long to get through to me, it's an age thing! I will have to ask you how to remove them, is it just sticking a screwdriver under each and prizing them up and will I need anything special to fit them back? I also assume they will need to go back in exactly the same place otherwise the beat error will be out.

[Nucejoe]

7 minutes ago, Zedster said:

how to remove them, is it just sticking a screwdriver under each and prizing them up and will I need anything special to fit them back? 

Each arm ( beat adjustor= mobile stud carrier   &    regulator arm)  , has a circle at one end with a slot cut  in them making a C ring, the C ring wraps around the setting . 

To minimize the risk of bending the arms , insert the cutting edge of a safety razor blade under the C riing near the slot, half of the C ring  snaps out of its groove,  Next grab the arm in a stout tweezers to prize up the arm.  

beat adjustor arm is mobile, once cleaned/ reassemble / lubed and wound , move beat adjustor arm to bring the impulse jewel in- beat,  then move the regulator arm to regulate the escapement.

Good luck

[Zedster]

Thanks, Nucejoe

Successfully removed the broken piece, which wasn't too bad thanks to your advice. I think the cleaning of the dried gunk with peg wood was more nerve-racking but now the parts are bathing themselves in lighter fuel before a nice soak in the ultrasonics then It's just a matter of putting them together again.

 

[Nucejoe]

Hi Zedster, 

 Lighter fluid in ultrasonic removes shellac, so balance and fork should stay out of ULT SONIC and cleaned by hand. 

See many discussions on WRT about various types of cleaning solutions.

Good luck Pal

[Zedster]

I got there in the end but made a bit of a mess with lots of scratches but learnt a lot in the process. For a beginner, it was a major operation for me but pleased I managed it 

[CYCLOPS]

glad you got it, some chemicals dissolve debris better than others, One-Dip [hairspring cleaner], sometimes denatured alcohol/acetone/mek will do it with tapered Qtip on that dirty bridge ....