Static vs dynamic poising

[JohnR725]

10 hours ago, praezis said:

now everything is clear

I was just expanding upon something that you said?

13 hours ago, praezis said:

simple explanation

which is basically it's complicated. Then I'm not a math whiz but if you read the description of the items you learn that a lot of things influenced poise errors. Fortunately we only have to deal with the repair were not manufacturing. On the other hand if we were manufacturing and you are very clever with the formula you can just about make poise errors disappear. But that's of zero helped us repairing watches.

 

1 minute ago, praezis said:

I found it lengthy and not well written.

thank you. Somewhere in another group I went through the PDF and I was definitely not kind at all. Although there is something interesting in the PDF on page 47 there is a link to the Greiner timing machine manual. The Greiner timing machine manual is a really excellent reference as it assumes the watchmaker doesn't know what a timing machine is and it provides all sorts a really interesting and useful information including dynamic poising. So that's probably the most useful thing in the PDF.

[praezis]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

On the other hand if we were manufacturing and you are very clever with the formula you can just about make poise errors disappear. But that's of zero helped us repairing watches.

You may know that I added a tool to my PCTM (pro) timing machine program to make dynamic poising simple and easy. Of course that kind of math is used in the background - and it helps repairing watches. At least users of PCTM , e.g. me!

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

The Greiner timing machine manual is a really excellent reference

Agreed. And afaik their table of beat rates and lift angles is the original that was and is copied by literally each and every one - famous Witschi included.

Frank

[Klassiker]

Like watching Federer and Nadal playing tennis!

[Mercurial]

On 1/22/2025 at 7:10 PM, JohnR725 said:

thank you. Somewhere in another group I went through the PDF and I was definitely not kind at all. Although there is something interesting in the PDF on page 47 there is a link to the Greiner timing machine manual.

I agree with Frank that the PDF is unnecessarily long, but unlike Jendritzki, it’s freely available online and there is not much information available for free regarding dynamic poising.

Of course a free PDF that is of poor quality or contains inaccurate information is worse than no information at all.

I would be the first to admit that Jendritzki’s “Watch Adjustment” is superior and covers more ground, but I’d be very interested to hear your thoughts on Dewey’s PDF, John. 

If you’d prefer to PM me a link to the other group where you covered this, or to PM me with your thoughts, that’s fine, I’m not looking to dispute what you’re saying, but I’d really appreciate your feedback regarding this PDF. 

I respect your opinion, as well as Frank’s and I certainly don’t want to be pointing people towards inaccurate or unhelpful sources of information. 

Best Regards,

Mark

[praezis]

It was some time ago when I read D.‘s pdf and  don‘t remember the details. Just my impression, I remember many repetitions, a rather narrow focus and even few errors. 

Generally I welcome his attempt to spread knowledge about the topic. I suppose he also wanted to show the unknown efforts of a good watchmaker and do a little publicity for himself - but that is ok.
He just is not practiced in good writing (as Jendritzki was).

Frank

[JohnR725]

do

9 hours ago, Mercurial said:

but I’d be very interested to hear your thoughts on Dewey’s PDF, John. 

If you’d prefer to PM me a link to the other group where you covered this, or to PM me with your thoughts, that’s fine, I’m not looking to dispute what you’re saying, but I’d really appreciate your feedback regarding this PDF. 

I will have to track it down see if there's a way of doing a search to find it. I do know word is it just where exactly is it will be the problem is have to find it

10 hours ago, Mercurial said:

Of course a free PDF that is of poor quality or contains inaccurate information is worse than no information at all

I did take a quick look at the PDF and yes is a lot of pages for just dynamic poising isn't there? 

oh and of course free PDF he does reference the Greiner timing machine manual which does have a nice section on dynamic poising. Which is relatively short and to the point without all the other bonus information that I have an objection to.

 

 

[VWatchie]

On 1/22/2025 at 10:33 AM, praezis said:

You may know that I added a tool to my PCTM (pro) timing machine program to make dynamic poising simple and easy.

As you know, I'm an ardent and happy user of your PCTM. Can you tell us a bit more about this feature and what version it is available in? I believe my version is 3.2.2. Does it require some special hardware? I guess not but to make sure!

[nevenbekriev]

On 1/23/2025 at 12:53 PM, Mercurial said:

I agree with Frank that the PDF is unnecessarily long, but unlike Jendritzki, it’s freely available online and there is not much information available for free regarding dynamic poising.

Of course a free PDF that is of poor quality or contains inaccurate information is worse than no information at all.

I would be the first to admit that Jendritzki’s “Watch Adjustment” is superior and covers more ground, but I’d be very interested to hear your thoughts on Dewey’s PDF, John. 

If you’d prefer to PM me a link to the other group where you covered this, or to PM me with your thoughts, that’s fine, I’m not looking to dispute what you’re saying, but I’d really appreciate your feedback regarding this PDF. 

I respect your opinion, as well as Frank’s and I certainly don’t want to be pointing people towards inaccurate or unhelpful sources of information. 

Best Regards,

Mark

Hi Mark,

You can see my reaction too when I first met this PDF here

Then You can see this to understand what I mean

[praezis]

@VWatchie

Your version has the dynamic poising tool included. The graphic appears as soon as you have the 4 vertical measurements finished. Some more hints are in the manual, at the end.

Nev‘s explanation reads convincing, but will you still remember it right in 1 or 2 years? Fastest position: was the heavy spot on bottom or on top? Heavy spot on bottom: was it in the most fast or most slow position? I had to think every time and use my memory hook to get it right. That was annoying, so I invented the tool.

If you go for the fastest position, you may catch the one where the hairspring is rubbing - dangerous.

Frank

 

Edited January 28 by praezis

[nickelsilver]

On 1/15/2024 at 6:21 PM, nickelsilver said:

Number one thing to keep in mind with dynamic poising, is it should be done on a fully serviced piece that is running perfectly. It's counterproductive to attempt it on something that's not 100%. That said, it's extremely useful. If I restaff a watch, I rarely even check it on the static poising tool. A danger of the static poising tool is you might detect a poise error, correct it, only to find that you now have positional errors related to- the poise. Since dynamic poise takes into account the hairspring and how it affects the balance, you can get something that's COSC level with dynamic, but the balance seems out of poise on the poising tool.

 

The best writeup I've seen is at the amazing site Vintagewatchstraps (such a funny name). Great info.

On this note-

 

Just made a staff for a regular client. Eterna 852, 14"' movement, simple and gorgeous. Staff that was in was a cobble job, roller table glued on way off center, hs collet stretched out.

 

New staff made and finished, didn't check on the poising tool. They just wanted the staff. Threw oil in all the needed places, on the timing machine. 17s delta in 6 positions on a dirty movement, 280-90 amplitude horizontal. I'm pretty sure any preemptive static poising would have made it worse. But- killer movement, escapement seemed ok, amplitude shows in spite of the mank it's ok.

 

Still, I do use the static tool sometimes. But only after checking on the Witschi.

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

any preemptive static poising would have made it worse.

just because somebody statically poise is does not mean they have to destroy the balance wheel in the process? In other words if you put your balance wheel on the poising tool and while it may not pass wostep standards as it still rocking backwards and forwards as long as it appears to be reasonably close there is no need to do anything to the balance wheel. It's not the static poising or even the dynamic poising that's the problem. It's the problem of someone feeling they need to do something about what they perceive the problem is.

but maybe and new approaches needed?

6 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Still, I do use the static tool sometimes. But only after checking on the Witschi

maybe poising is only needed if there's a problem on the timing machine? Then based upon how bad the timing issue is will determine whether you need to start with static or whether you can do dynamic poising.