VARIX Suisse 1940 / 1950

[signcarver]

I need help identifying this movement. Pictures below.

It was my dad's watch with the brand name VARIX Suisse.

The only markings i can find are on the barrel bridge - "101" and 2 markings on the mainplate - "BRCVCT + DEP." and "164".

I googled and looked at a couple of online movement catalogs to no avail.

Thank you for your help!

Steve

[RichardHarris123]

Nothing under the balance wheel?  I found this 

[signcarver]

@RichardHarris123 - Thank you! Nothing under the balance wheel. All parts are in the movment, though not in the pictures. I'll see if i can find anything on "Excelsior 4".

Thanks again!

[RichardHarris123]

I've looked, Excelsior mainly made chronographs. I could only find a couple of non chronographs , neither looked like yours. 

PS. It says Brevet , patent in English. 

[Marc]

What is the diameter of the movement main plate?

[JohnR725]

I don't suppose we can get a diameter? With a diameter in ligne  as that's how we measure watches or in metric I've attached a PDF see you can convert it. The reason for this is material books printed from the venture when it started exactly the 50s through the mid 70's perhaps during that time range material books what have what's called the fingerprint system. So you look in your book and if you know the size I just gave you a sample below to see what it looks like. But with the size and a clear picture the setting parts you did attempt to figure out what your watches. Without a size that I have to guess and that takes way more time which I'm not going to. So a nice picture of the setting parts and the size of the watch I can look at my book and see what it is.

 

watch-ligne-size-chart.pdf

[signcarver]

@RichardHarris123 Thank you! - Actuallly, it's not "BREVET" but "BRCVCT" when you look under a microscope. Unless it's a stylized "E" but the "E" on the second word "DEP" portion is clearly an "E". Either way, i couldn't find anything.

@Marc - the diameter is 26.66 mm (11.8 ligne) or if i round off by the chart @JohnR725 posted, 11 3/4 ligne.

@JohnR725 - Thanks for the chart!!!

I wonder if the "plus sign" in the first picture below is associated with a movement maker?

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, signcarver said:

Actuallly, it's not "BREVET" but "BRCVCT

Actually your incorrect I snipped something of a website that had to do with hallmarks of markings of watches this will explain

 

[signcarver]

@JohnR725 Thank you! Mystery of BREVET + DEP solved. 

An interesting tidbit, but unrelated to this post, is that on the inside of the caseback there are the letters "ACIER INOX". I originally thought it might be the case manufacturer, but it's actually French for Stainless Steel. Who knew...

[Marc]

Looks like a variant of an AS1194 with a slightly different train bridge shape.

[JohnR725]

11 minutes ago, Marc said:

AS1194

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&AS_1194

 

[Nucejoe]

Perhaps a copy of RoAmer MST 372. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Nucejoe

[Marc]

34 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Perhaps a copy of RoAmer MST 372. 

@Nucejoe check setting works and orientation of balance cock...

[Nucejoe]

37 minutes ago, Marc said:

@Nucejoe check setting works and orientation of balance cock...

Ya , I wasn't anything close.

 I think its a copy though,  theres no trade mark , no caliber designation, hand engraved, E looks C , B looks more like D or O. 6

But copy of what.

Rgds

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Nucejoe

[RichardHarris123]

I think it is an As1194 but aren't there any trademarks or caliber number? 

[Marc]

The watch world is littered with examples of ebouche's that have been supplied by one company to be built into watches made by a different company who modify or refinish it to their own requirements (ebouche literally means rough or unfinished), even removing the original manufacturers branding, if it was even there in the first place (it could well be a contract requirement that the ebouche's are supplied un-branded). Such modifications could be technical improvements to the movement, or could just be cosmetic, including changing the shape of the bridges.

I very much doubt this is a "copy" of anything, but is an AS1194 supplied un-branded to the client company for them to  finish as their own. AS might even have carried out the modifications themselves to the client's specification.

[RichardHarris123]

Thanks @Marc, I  knew about ebouches but didn't know that they could be unbranded. 

[signcarver]

Thank you all!

@Marc - Thank you! I will look at the Bestfit Enclyclopedia for the RoAmer MST 372. By the way, nice web site.

@JohnR725 - Thank you! The picture in the link you sent looks very similar, but the train of wheels bridge is a slightly different shape. I'm going to compare parts of my watch with the Bestfit Encyclopedia.

@Nucejoe - Thank you!

@RichardHarris123 - Thank you! Unfortunately no trademarks or caliber number.

I will report back.

Edited November 23, 2023 by signcarver
corrected links to responders

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, Marc said:

The watch world is littered with examples of ebouche's that have been supplied by one company to be built into watches made by a different company who modify or refinish it to their own requirements (ebouche literally means rough or unfinished), even removing the original manufacturers branding, if it was even there in the first place (it could well be a contract requirement that the ebouche's are supplied un-branded). Such modifications could be technical improvements to the movement, or could just be cosmetic, including changing the shape of the bridges.

I very much doubt this is a "copy" of anything, but is an AS1194 supplied un-branded to the client company for them to  finish as their own. AS might even have carried out the modifications themselves to the client's specification.

People collecting or repairing watches often are very confused by who made their movement. I was a lecture where somebody was giving the history of the Gruen Watch company and there is something quite fascinating. The collectors for being fascinated with who actually made the Gruen movements. What I was fascinated with is the company who made the movements who else were they making movements for who else needed high grade movements? Then some of the key players like their OEM company so much they purchased stock in the company with one of them finally purchasing the company as their own in 2004. You can see the sales price at the link below and you probably be surprised with who the company is you probably thought they made their own movements. Well they do now comes the own the company.

The other thing of interest in the lecture was for OEM type movements when you have several high-end companies purchasing to make their movement look different they change the plate layouts and took out a patent. They still have people having the same movement but the plates will be laid out differently. This is why in the Gruen lecture he said there's still trying to figure out who made some of the movements and then be comparing with other companies to see if they could figure it out similarities and things.

https://www.watch-wiki.net/doku.php?id=aegler

2 hours ago, signcarver said:

Thank you! The picture in the link you sent looks very similar, but the train of wheels bridge is a slightly different shape. I'm going to compare parts of my watch with the Bestfit Encyclopedia.

 

So back to the problem of your watch identifying it? So yes the identification seems simple look at setting parts if they agree we have a number or do we? Why did companies like bestfit come into existence? So for instance we've identified the set bridge a key component in identification of your watch but have we identified the watch yet?

Let's look at the top of the bestfit book noticed what it says gives you the caliber number the size the page where we can find the setting parts the part numbers and movement interchangeability?

 

Let's go to the bottom of the page and we see that the 1194 as a base caliber of 1158. Notice in a few other movement still use the same base caliber?

Now back to why do companies like bestfit exist? Even in this example we see in that a lot of parts will interchange and then we end up with a lot of other companies conceivably purchasing the movement putting their own name on it some companies like Bulova would possibly sell their own parts and soon you can end up with hundreds of parts packets considerably all containing the exact same part. Or maybe the company doesn't even have parts than you don't get that many parts at all. But then companies like bestfit come along they help you to identify your watch they give you part numbers and then you can hopefully purchase parts. Or maybe you do something a little different digital bestfit is online at makes it a lot easier to do things like this

for instance that unique set bridge that identifies your watch I wonder who else is using that set bridge? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[signcarver]

@JohnR725 Fascinating information! I had read that the original Rolex Daytona movements were outsourced, but had no idea other movements were. 

I haven't worked on that many watches, so i like to identify the movement in case i break something while servicing it. 

Thanks again for helping me in this journey.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, signcarver said:

I haven't worked on that many watches, so i like to identify the movement in case i break something while servicing it

Spare parts unfortunately will always be a problem for one reason or another. Even if you 100% identify watch especially of its vintage there may be no spare parts available anymore. r have a mystery watch and try to find another one on eBay Howdy describe your mystery watch to see if anyone is selling another mystery watch that you can purchase for spare parts that becomes quite a challenge.

Then since we believe we have identified the base caliber what about seeing if it actually matches the base caliber parts? You can look in the bestfit book because they do the same thing as the website. Such as this website

https://www.windingstems.com/product.php

Normally you using it if you want a stem or their other part the staff the other thing I use it for its a quick way to get dimensions where you don't have to look in the bestfit book which does list both of these by dimensions in addition to caliber numbers.

So you know or think you have a caliber number you can look up your stem get the sizes and see how closely your stem matches.

Then the setting parts of the peculiar thing where their unique for identification purposes to the company's get together and decide on that or did it just happened because of? But you start going beyond the unique parts how many parts will interchange in a watch with anything else? For instance the stem look at all the watches that use the same stem and I classic we have a variation but not much of a variation

Now we get the dimensions and yes a lot of watches use that particular stem

Now let's go to a different website in addition to bestfit online which you have to pay for is another free site.  Which for the most part has exactly everything the same but not always and if you find a part here you can go to the main site and see if it's available for purchase sometimes it is

http://cgi.julesborel.com/

Oh now we get to another problem certain movements set up and made over time will have variations. So depending upon the parts you need you need to be aware of exactly what you need. For instance balance complete there are four of them. Or the cannon pinion they came in different heights looks like six of those. The escape wheel is interesting because it comes in four separate types and the references to the type of pivot it has what is a conical or straight pivots. So all the various combinations are here so if you order and escape wheel you have to get the right one or it won't fit.

Then one of my favorite parts the pallet arbor. Yes when you break the pivot off the arbor can be replaced providing you have the right tools to push it out and push it back in again and put it exactly where it was before. Pallet arbors are interesting because look at how many use the exact same one. So there are some parts that interchange with almost everything in the universe and then other parts that are unique to your watch. More than likely what we're seeing is depending upon who is manufacturing the movement conceivably they outsourced parts like the pallet arbor which was made by somebody else. You go down the list far enough that even looks like a couple of Rolex watches use the same arbor.

So not only do you have companies manufacturing OEM movements conceivably you have them purchasing OEM components from other companies. This would definitely apply to a lot of the specialty things like the jewels or the mainspring or apparently pallet fork arbors.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=[^}D_Es

 

 

 

Four of them are listed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Marc]

21 hours ago, signcarver said:

By the way, nice web site.

Cheers, I ought to try and get around to updating it

[signcarver]

@JohnR725 Thank you. More great info! I checked http://cgi.julesborel.com/ but the caseback only has limited into which appears to be a serial number, which didn't  pan out. (picture of case back below)

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, signcarver said:

caseback only has limited into which appears to be a serial number, which didn't  pan out. (picture of case back below)

You're not going to find anything on your case back as the database won't have anything. In order to use the case back search you have to have a watch that you actually know who manufactured at it has to company that had parts listed for their cases like Seiko Rolex Omega and others yours does not fall under that category

I snipped out an image for you notice I circled something that's where you want to go click on one of those links see where that takes you

[signcarver]

Based on the previous info from @RichardHarris123 , @JohnR725, and the picture of actual parts below, i think it is an A. Schild 1158 - 1194. Probably 1194 which is 11 1/2 ligne. (1158 is 10 1/2 ligne).

Thank you everyone!!!

Edited December 1, 2023 by signcarver
added info about ligne