Get rid of your Jacot Tool? Pivot Polishing A Great Affordable Alternative?

[VWatchie]

The title of this post is the title of the below video (EDIT: Luckily, the video has been taken down!):

I get concerned when someone promotes polishing wheel pivots with Eveflex and thinks that it could possibly replace a Jacot tool. The problem with Eveflex is that it polishes the pivot completely wrong. With Eveflex, the pivot is polished from the top side and makes it conical. With a Jacot tool, the pivot is polished along its long side, the only disadvantage is that the diameter can decrease, which, if necessary, can be corrected by installing a jewel with a slightly smaller jewel hole.

In addition, I strongly doubt that Eveflex, like a Jacot tool, works per the "metal displacement" principle.

Having said that, I use Eveflex myself, but I always use the very softest version, always polish the pivot by hand and only for a short time. I see it more as a deep clean than a polish, but clearly, it makes the pivot cone-shaped, but so little that it is not measurable or visible and therefore negligible.

The video uses an electric rotary tool, only the second softest version of Eveflex, and the polishing goes on for what feels like an eternity. It will make the wheel pivot cone-shaped. I note that the video does not show the results of polishing the pivots of a third wheel, a fourth wheel, or an escape wheel. It makes you wonder why 

To each his or her own, but I strongly advise against using the tool in the video.

Your opinions?

Edited November 11, 2023 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

The title of this post is the title of the below video:

I get concerned when someone promotes polishing wheel pivots with Eveflex and thinks that it could possibly replace a Jacot tool. The problem with Eveflex is that it polishes the pivot completely wrong. With Eveflex, the pivot is polished from the top side and makes it conical. With a Jacot tool, the pivot is polished along its long side, the only disadvantage is that the diameter can decrease, which, if necessary, can be corrected by installing a jewel with a slightly smaller jewel hole.

In addition, I strongly doubt that Eveflex, like a Jacot tool, works per the "metal displacement" principle.

Having said that, I use Eveflex myself, but I always use the very softest version, always polish the pivot by hand and only for a short time. I see it more as a deep clean than a polish, but clearly, it makes the pivot cone-shaped, but so little that it is not measurable or visible and therefore negligible.

The video uses an electric rotary tool, only the second softest version of Eveflex, and the polishing goes on for what feels like an eternity. It will make the wheel pivot cone-shaped. I note that the video does not show the results of polishing the pivots of a third wheel, a fourth wheel, or an escape wheel. It makes you wonder why 

To each his or her own, but I strongly advise against using the tool in the video.

Your opinions?

We discussed this a little while ago Watchie, the general opinion is that its a pretty crap idea risking pivot destruction, quite surprised at Matt promoting it. Apart from the fact that only the center part of the pins can used in this way. Nah mate the Jacot rules this one, this tool Galaxy pon polisher ? Gets "nul points" from Richard the terrible

[tomh207]

If you look through the comments on this video you’ll find my thoughts on it. Alex Hamilton showed this abomination in a video as well. I’m pretty sure I can do a good job of screwing up pivots without spending $200+ on this thing to do it for me.

 

Tom

[thor447]

23 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Having said that, I use Eveflex myself, but I always use the very softest version, always polish the pivot by hand and only for a short time. I see it more as a deep clean than a polish, but clearly, it makes the pivot cone-shaped, but so little that it is not measurable or visible and therefore negligible.

I agree.  I use Eveflex on occasion, but always with the softest inserts, and maybe for 5-10 seconds at a time.  It is more of a cleaning technique than a polish.  I defer to the Jacot tool (which I'm still working on improving my technique) when actual pivot work is needed.

[Neverenoughwatches]

56 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

If you look through the comments on this video you’ll find my thoughts on it. Alex Hamilton showed this abomination in a video as well. I’m pretty sure I can do a good job of screwing up pivots without spending $200+ on this thing to do it for me.

 

Tom

Haha what a load of tosh, Matt isn't  even confident about what he has to say about it. 250 bucks i could buy a whole stable full of horseshit for far less than that.

[mikepilk]

23 hours ago, VWatchie said:

In addition, I strongly doubt that Eveflex, like a Jacot tool, works per the "metal displacement" principle.

I'm not convinced that "metal displacement" is a thing, or works as he says. He says that "friction and heat" move the metal. As steel does not become malleable until above 500-600°C, I'm not convinced. The scratches move material out, so I guess enough pressure and friction could push some back in to the grooves.

Edited November 10, 2023 by mikepilk

[nickelsilver]

I think it's more along the lines of work hardening. This is definitely a thing with the steels used in watchmaking, staffs no exception. If I'm repivoting and my drill starts to slow down in cutting, if I keep going until it's properly dull, the next drill has a heck of a time breaking through the hardened (extra hardened) surface at the bottom of the hole. With a Jacot tool you put a surprising amount of pressure on the pivot while working it. Some metal is removed, as evidenced by the black deposit on the burnisher, but it is also work hardened.

 

That said, if removing say 0.01mm off the diameter of a 0.10mm pivot, there is a burr left at the end of the pivot that must be removed with another burnisher in another operation. Perhaps this is along the lines of metal being "moved", given the pressure. I bet if I put a piece of pivot steel (heat treated) in a vice and squeezed on it again and again it will move. Or when cutting a thread with a thread rolling die, this is all moving metal (not heat treated). Nonetheless the Jacot is making a hard skin through work hardening, that's the point of the tool (and, the pivot is nicely supported, it's just the best tool ever!).

[LittleWatchShop]

16 hours ago, thor447 said:

I agree.  I use Eveflex on occasion, but always with the softest inserts, and maybe for 5-10 seconds at a time.  It is more of a cleaning technique than a polish.  I defer to the Jacot tool (which I'm still working on improving my technique) when actual pivot work is needed.

I, too, use Eveflex in a similar way.

Edited November 11, 2023 by LittleWatchShop

[VWatchie]

7 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

That said, if removing say 0.01mm off the diameter of a 0.10mm pivot, there is a burr left at the end of the pivot that must be removed with another burnisher in another operation.

Just to make sure, you're talking about balance staffs here, aren't you? I think I've seen this burr on train wheel pivots on some occasions but never thought much of it with the rationale that it will never get in contact with or interact with anything else in the movement.

EDIT: I guess for a high-grade expensive movement you would always want to remove the burr on train wheel pivots for aesthetic reasons!?

Edited November 10, 2023 by VWatchie

[oldhippy]

I don't like the video. If I was still watchmaking I wouldn't touch the tool with a barge pole. Speed is not everything. 

[nickelsilver]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Just to make sure, you're talking about balance staffs here, aren't you? I think I've seen this burr on train wheel pivots on some occasions but never thought much of it with the rationale that it will never get in contact with or interact with anything else in the movement.

EDIT: I guess for a high-grade expensive movement you would always want to remove the burr on train wheel pivots for aesthetic reasons!?

Absolutely balance staffs but really any part. I always check, and anyway do the pivot end last so it gets taken care of.