Possible ban of trichloroethylene in the USA, potentially limiting "one dip" availability?

[TimpanogosSlim]

I am pretty sure that my can of Troop-Balas One-Dip is straight TCE. 

In the US, the Biden administration has proposed a blanket ban on the substance, citing carcinogenicity concerns: 

https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/biden-harris-administration-proposes-ban-trichloroethylene-protect-public-toxic

The industry people opposed to the ban are mostly making the case that they use just trace amounts of it here and there, not so much that they want to have 200ml of it in a jar in a desk drawer for when something delicate needs to be very clean. It used to be used heavily in dry cleaning of fabrics. 

Are there other comparable substances that watchmaking suppliers are likely to be able to switch to? 

Edited November 9, 2023 by TimpanogosSlim

[JohnR725]

Did you notice at the link you gave a reference that suitable replacements are available but conveniently they're not mentioned at all what they are.

 

[lexacat]

If someone could provide a suitable, cheap, safe alternative to one dip that I can easily access in Australia I'm all ears. 

[spectre6000]

I have a can (may be empty now) of One-Dip in my desk drawer, and I was never impressed with its effectiveness. I only used it a few times because it just didn't get the job done as well as the L&R solutions in my usual US process. Last I checked, that was the consensus. It sounds great on paper to be able to clean a balance with little or no agitation, but that's just not how it plays out in practice with the stuff. I, for one, will not be mourning its loss. I'll probably hold onto the can for giggles so I can show my grandchildren how crazy people were (I was) way back when keeping such dangerous chemicals in my desk drawer like radium tablets and heroin cough syrups.

Edited November 9, 2023 by spectre6000

[nickelsilver]

I haven't used it since I lived in the U.S. over 20 years ago, and even then the old timers said it wasn't as good as it used to be. Don't miss it.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

It sounds great on paper to be able to clean a balance with little or no agitation

It was thinking about the quoted part above and went to find a vintage catalog. So on paper it looks really pretty it does clean the balance wheel at least in the catalog.

But I was thinking what do I use it for? And what will my alternatives be? So do I clean balance wheels and hairsprings occasionally yesterday I did for instance incoming 18 size pocket watch running weird. Well at least it was running but why was it running weird? I like to evaluate my watches before cleaning and fix anything I can before cleaning. So what do I use the rinse for well tweezers were good at picking up fluids I drop at all over the jewels loosen up the old oils. Sometimes I'll drop it over the escapement the loosen that up. Then the balance wheel with bridge the entire thing when ends to the rinse bottle for a moment was I rinsing the hairspring know I just want to the loosen up the old one else. So basically I'm using it as a really nice general-purpose cleaning fluid. Oh and the results of my evaluation was loose roller jewel which all fixed sometime today.

So what alternatives for general-purpose cleaning fluid on the bench exist?

But as far as miracles cleaning a balance wheels without running them through a cleaning machine another one of those urban legend horological myths I believe. Even if that's what the catalog seems to be showing.

 

 

 

[LittleWatchShop]

5 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I haven't used it since I lived in the U.S. over 20 years ago, and even then the old timers said it wasn't as good as it used to be. Don't miss it.

So how do you clean the balance assembly?  I have been using one-dip, but I wonder sometimes...how well is it really working.  I can see residue from the component I am cleaning--a good sign.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

So how do you clean the balance assembly?

You run it through the cleaning machine the same as you run everything else through the cleaning machine. Although I do like to isolate my balance wheel from anything else it might bump into so usually put it in its own thimble basket.

[LittleWatchShop]

26 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

You run it through the cleaning machine the same as you run everything else through the cleaning machine. Although I do like to isolate my balance wheel from anything else it might bump into so usually put it in its own thimble basket.

With the hairspring installed?  BTW, I use the L&R spinning machine for cleaning.

[VWatchie]

21 hours ago, TimpanogosSlim said:

In the US, the Biden administration has proposed a blanket ban on the substance, citing carcinogenicity concerns: 

I believe it is said to have been Trump's favorite substance so the carcinogenic thing is likely just a pretext to prevent Trump from using it. An indictment for having used it in the past in on its way.

Edited November 9, 2023 by VWatchie

[LittleWatchShop]

8 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I believe it is said to have been Trump's favorite substance so the carcinogenic thing is likely just a pretext to prevent Trump from using it. An indictment for having used it in the past in on its way.

WTF? Did you hear this from Buck Fiden?

[TimpanogosSlim]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

You run it through the cleaning machine the same as you run everything else through the cleaning machine. Although I do like to isolate my balance wheel from anything else it might bump into so usually put it in its own thimble basket.

 

I am an amateur without even formal online training, but, I have adopted the practice of reinstalling the balance complete on the main plate with the balance bridge and, if i remember to, without the top and bottom chatons. Which of course have to be maintained separate from each other, as they may not be identical. 

I use jars of L&R 111 and i forget which L&R rinse in a heated ultrasonic bath. 

And then i regard one-dip as a final rinse for the hairspring. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by TimpanogosSlim

[Waggy]

I run the balance through my watch cleaner attached to the main plate, then after this I put it in a little jar of hexane, as one-dip/B-dip is not available to me where I live. I have had good results so far. Here is a YouTube which I got the information from (about 8 mins in), and confirms it is safe to use etc.

Hope this helps.

[JohnR725]

10 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

With the hairspring installed?  BTW, I use the L&R spinning machine for cleaning

Yes they hairspring goes through the cleaning machine even with ultrasonic.

If it's a watch it has balance jewels it can be removed. After everything is off the main plate balance wheel goes back in with its bridge screwed back down. Jewels are removed and intact that can run through the cleaning machine as the bridge on the plate install protected

Pocket watch balance wheels either placed in a tiny basket or separately. As far as I know I've never had a problem from running it through the cleaning machine in the cleaning machine at work can spin quite fast we can hear it's spinning. You just don't what the balance wheel or anything else bumping into the balance wheel

I suspect you have some scrap pocket watch balance wheels or even wristwatch. Run into the cleaning machine and see what happens as long as their separate are not able to fly all over the place I've never had a problem. Plus they come out nice and clean. Just remember no matter what she do always check your roller jewel especially on vintage watches they tend to get loose. I don't think that's the cleaning machine is just whatever it was that you using to hold them in place. Sometimes there loose before you even run them through the cleaning machine like the one I re-shellac today. Which is probably good I caught it ahead of time it might a full enough to cleaning machine. On the other hand the cleaning machine does have a really tiny little drain basket to catch things.

 

[TimpanogosSlim]

Hexane seems to be in the category of things i have to buy from a non-VOC-restricted jurisdiction. Just like naphtha, etc. 

Workable though. 

[Waggy]

46 minutes ago, TimpanogosSlim said:

Just like naphtha

I use the same naphtha as he is pointing to in the title screen of the video, which is paint thinner, due to the fact that I can't import or buy locally any commercial watch cleaning solutions. I looked at the MSDS sheets and it is just straight naphtha, they don't add anything strange to it that you would need to worry about. Maybe you could get this from a local hardware supplier like I do?

On 11/10/2023 at 11:43 AM, JohnR725 said:

After everything is off the main plate balance wheel goes back in with its bridge screwed back down. Jewels are removed and intact that can run through the cleaning machine as the bridge on the plate install protected

I just started doing this very thing on my last few builds, I used to run the balance on the main plate through the watch cleaner with the jewels still in place. However, I was finding that the jewels and the pivots of the balance were not getting clean and needed additional manual cleaning after the machine wash, actually not surprising when you think about it that the cleaning solution would find it hard to get into those places and clean them.

Now I install the balance with the shock jewels in place and once the balance is installed I then remove both sets of shock jewels (upper and lower) and place them straight into a small benzine jar of naphtha and let then 'soak' there whilst the rest of the watch is in the cleaning machine. Once the cleaning machine is done I remove the balance from the plate and place it into a small jar of hexane and leave it there whilst I start work on the movement. I find that the balance jewel housing and pivots etc now come up sparkling clean, and all I have to do with the jewels is a very quick clean up whilst they are still in the benzine jar in the naphtha with a bit of peg wood as the naphtha has been softening up any gunk whilst I was waiting for the rest of the movement to clean in the watch cleaning machine.

When I re-assemble the movement I install the mainspring and the train of wheels, bridges and pallet fork etc, then at the point just before installing the balance I flip the movement over to the dial side and lubricate the train of wheels jewels etc and then oil-up and install the shock jewel for the lower balance pivot. Next I flip the movement back over and install the balance (still without its jewel) - it's actually a little easier as you can see the balance pivot in the balance with the jewel removed. The balance will still spin-up because the balance is resting in the lower jewel which I just installed so you can be confident that it's installed correctly and working, and you get the reward of seeing it spin up! The final step is then to oil-up and install the upper jewel on the balance cock for the upper balance pivot.

I haven't seen any adverse effects on the balance due to running it through the cleaning machine without the jewels and like I said its actually a little easier to install the balance back onto the plate with the top jewel missing as you don't have to worry about damaging the pivot as you can visually confirm it is in the correct place.

Apologies for the long winded explanation, it's actually easier than it seems.

[TimpanogosSlim]

On 11/15/2023 at 8:44 PM, Waggy said:

I use the same naphtha as he is pointing to in the title screen of the video, which is paint thinner, due to the fact that I can't import or buy locally any commercial watch cleaning solutions. I looked at the MSDS sheets and it is just straight naphtha, they don't add anything strange to it that you would need to worry about. Maybe you could get this from a local hardware supplier like I do?

 

 

Categorically, no. 

Not without driving a couple hours anyway. 

There's a whole range of isoparaffins at the hardware store labeled "SUCH AND SUCH SOLVENT (substitute)"

That's the reality of living in a VOC-restricted area. I can get as much acetone and alcohol as i want. The rest of it is "it could work, give it a shot" low-voc isoparaffins.

[Waggy]

27 minutes ago, TimpanogosSlim said:

That's the reality of living in a VOC-restricted area.

To be honest I just looked up what a VOC-restricted area is, I guess their heart is in the right place, but doesn't make life easy for you. I used to live in a country that only had one shop that sold alcohol (that's one shop in the whole country). We used to do runs to the shop and stock up for the month, seems like you are in a similar situation with your watch cleaning chemicals.

Maybe we need a new thread for VOC friendly cleaning chemicals, what do you currently use?

[TimpanogosSlim]

37 minutes ago, Waggy said:

To be honest I just looked up what a VOC-restricted area is, I guess their heart is in the right place, but doesn't make life easy for you. I used to live in a country that only had one shop that sold alcohol (that's one shop in the whole country). We used to do runs to the shop and stock up for the month, seems like you are in a similar situation with your watch cleaning chemicals.

Maybe we need a new thread for VOC friendly cleaning chemicals, what do you currently use?

I can get whatever i want online, more or less. Just more hassle. 

I think they changed the regs so i can get odorless mineral spirit aka stoddard solvent locally as well. I have quart cans of that and naphtha, had to get the naphtha from amazon. Hexane is pricy, I guess a guy doesn't need a lot of it though. Was nigh impossible to get toluene for a while but i actually don't recall why i was sure i wanted some? race car guys want it to make their own race gas (it's a potent octane booster).