1940's Hamilton Endicott (cal 987A) stopping issue

[kd8tzc]

I have my grandfathers Hamilton Endicott that I just found.  I'm sure it needs to be cleaned, and that will be done, but can anyone help me with this issue and what I might be looking for when I disassemble it.

When I wind it and let it sit, it runs just fine (it seems), but if I wear it, it will stop at some point.  I a had left it sitting last night and it ran all night.  When I placed it on the timegrapher this AM, it showed signs that it needs a cleaning as the rate is fluctuating all over the place (sometimes negative, sometimes positive) and I am leaving it only is the DU position.  The Amp is only 184 and the BE is 6.7ms with a LA of 52 degrees.

Anyhow, not sure what could cause it to stop while I am wearing it (possibly dirty pivots) but would like to hear from someone more knowledgeable than me on this one.

Picture of the movement below.  Thanks all!

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by kd8tzc
Better picture added

[nickelsilver]

The lift angle is quite likely lower than 52, but imagining it is, with 185 amplitude it simply clearly needs a service. Amplitude in the verticals is probably dropping to 100, it's barely running, and continuing to run it on dry/dirty/gummy pivots won't help it. There could be other issues like bent or worn balance pivots, escapement out of whack, all this will be seen and rectified in the service. It's a very nice movement from who I consider the best American maker.

[kd8tzc]

That's sort of what I figured.  I'll have to see if I can find a tear down video for it to better see what is under the hood that may be different from more modern watches.  I'm sure it's somewhat familiar, but it doesn't look like it has a normal shock setting.

[Nucejoe]

 Is there a similar looking balance capstone on mainpalte side?  missing or damaged cap stone can stop the watch in DD position, you pretty well should detach the balance-cock to examine pivots, the worn one will look noticably shorter.

 

 

[JohnR725]

11 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

I'll have to see if I can find a tear down video for it to better see what is under the hood that may be different from more modern watches.  I'm sure it's somewhat familiar, but it doesn't look like it has a normal shock setting.

it looks like your standard wristwatch before the nifty shock systems were  invented. Then a book well worth reading and skimming through. But if want to skip ahead page 131 talks about servicing your watch.

https://archive.org/details/TM9-1575

 

 

[Nucejoe]

 Cap stone is secured in place with two little screws tightened from the cock's underside,  people often avoid removing such cap stones to clean and peg and  trying to reach the screw heads through hairspring is risky.

Is this a boot regulator? 

Best to detach the balance and cock, that lets you soak the cock in Coca-Cola which makes unscrewing those little screws a definate success. ( heads pop off the little screws easy)

Dress your screwdriver for a perfect fit into small screws slot.

Lets hope you don't have to restaff this balance, poising the balance is quite a job, so you would want to avoid poising, until you master the task.

The better the watch the more skilled one needs to be to keep the quality intact. 

Another question, are banking pins adjustable on these?

Rgds

 

[JohnR725]

6 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

trying to reach the screw heads through hairspring is risky.

that's why you would loosen the hairspring stubs screw and the balance wheel would drop out because it's just an over coil. Then you can get to the screws safely.

13 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Lets hope you don't have to restaff this balance, poising the balance is quite a job,

why would poising this balance be hard? Who knows maybe it doesn't even need poising at all may not even need a staff.

[kd8tzc]

I'll be disassembling and inspecting this morning.

Okay, Balance staff out... pivots look okay to my less trained eyes, but let me know what you all think.

[Nucejoe]

Pivots look OK.

5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

that's why you would loosen the hairspring stubs screw and the balance wheel would drop out because it's just an over coil. Then you can get to the screws safely.

Thats what I have been telling hereinbefore. 

Image of pivots is posted now, doesn't need new staff.

John you haven't warped balance wheels for so long you have forgotten they can warp.

Rgds

[JohnR725]

10 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

John you haven't warped balance wheels for so long you have forgotten they can warp.

you forget my day job is pocket watches vintage American. Seldom do I see a beautiful flat balance wheel. Even yesterday's annoyance was a Hamilton 992B. This is a friction staff they should be perfect and it's wobbling which should be impossible but it still wobbling a little bit

on the other hand the pre-timing after I replace the balance staff looked really really good site is going to leave it the way it is.

5 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

Okay, Balance staff out... pivots look okay to my less trained eyes, but let me know what you all think.

looks quite nice if you're lucky the oil all went bad the watch got sticky and hasn't run in the last 50 years everything else would probably look fine also the benefits of organic lubrication is that it protects watches from wearing out.

[kd8tzc]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

the benefits of organic lubrication is that it protects watches from wearing out.

Maybe I should throw out all my synthetic oils and just get some good quality organic oils. 

I hope that is all that is wrong with the watch.  I just love the watch face when it is fitted in the case,  Here is the watch face after I removed it.  Looks better in the case, as the microscope has some harsh lighting.  I wish I could get an exact date for it, but I don't believe you can with the Hamilton watches.

 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, kd8tzc said:

I wish I could get an exact date for it, but I don't believe you can with the Hamilton watches.

here's somebody who got close by his serial number? There's probably a serial number listing somewhere I don't suppose you're a member of the national Association of watch and clock collectors? As I know they have some Hamilton stuff including some PDFs from Hamilton including a few of the military documents including this watch for parts lists because I just now looked.

https://tcktek.blogspot.com/2009/05/hamilton-987-movement-revealed.html

then here's some more information

https://vintage-hamilton-wristwatches.com/2012/10/how-to-identify-different-versions-of-hamilton-987-movements/

 

 

 

 

[kd8tzc]

25 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

here's somebody who got close by his serial number? There's probably a serial number listing somewhere I don't suppose you're a member of the national Association of watch and clock collectors? As I know they have some Hamilton stuff including some PDFs from Hamilton including a few of the military documents including this watch for parts lists because I just now looked.

https://tcktek.blogspot.com/2009/05/hamilton-987-movement-revealed.html

then here's some more information

https://vintage-hamilton-wristwatches.com/2012/10/how-to-identify-different-versions-of-hamilton-987-movements/

 

 

 

 

Thanks JR... no, I have not joined the NAWCC... I've wanted to, but my wife has curtailed my spending on watches and the such, so I haven't been able to justify the cost yet.  It's a little on the expensive side, then again, anything with watches is expensive.

[kd8tzc]

Okay, so got everything apart and started the inspection.  Have one strange thing that might be an issue that I should repair at some point.  I'm not sure how this would affect the watch at this point though.  Looking at the main plate, it appears that the bottom jewel for the 4th wheel may be damaged.  From the looks of it though, it appears to be on the outside (away from where the pivot would be) so I don't know how much that would affect the watch.

I'm not sure I would have the tools to replace it at this time, and with such an old watch, I have a feeling I would need to find a donor watch to redo this.  I think for now I will just clean and lubricate everything to the best of my ability and put it all back together and see what happens.  If it keeps stopping, well, maybe that is the cause.  The pictures don't show it all that well (not sure why the exposure is so crummy on the camera) but I can clearly see it through the microscope when I look through the two eye pieces.

 

[Nucejoe]

23 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 Is there a similar looking balance capstone on mainpalte side?  missing or damaged cap stone can stop the watch in DD position, you pretty well should detach the balance-cock to examine pivots, the worn one will look noticably shorter.

 

 

So the setting on mainplate side has no capstone. 

 

 

[JohnR725]

12 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

I wish I could get an exact date for it, but I don't believe you can with the Hamilton watches.

you just need to know where to look and it helps to have a membership in the Association who scanned a lot of the Hamilton records to files.

7 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

it appears that the bottom jewel for the 4th wheel may be damaged. 

if you look on eBay you'll find military packaged parts for this watch. Did a quick look didn't see the jewel for the fourth wheel but I would keep it on eBay sooner or later the parts will show up or plates or something else. Then replacing the jewel for the lower main plate only requires a staking set according to their technical literature as the jewel is in a setting.

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by JohnR725

[kd8tzc]

7 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

So the setting on mainplate side has no capstone. 

 

 

It has a capstone on the mainplate side.

[JohnR725]

I forgot to attach the Hamilton PDF on replacing jewels in a watch like this.

Hamilton technical data 102 improved friction jeweling.pdf

[kd8tzc]

Okay, so I received the replacement part today for the regulator.  Seems a little corroded, and the two pins that hold the hairspring seem very tight.  Is that normal and any tips on what I should do?

This was new old stock, supposedly from Dec 6, 1949.  Kinda a strange feeling when you open something that has been sealed up for over 74 years.  Looks like Joseph G. Leonard inspected and accepted the packet.  I wonder what ever happened to Mr Leonard?  Hopefully he had a good life.

[kd8tzc]

So I received the replacement regulator yesterday... it had some corrosion on it, but I was able to use a scalpel blade to open it very gently and all seems okay.  The problem I now am having is that the balance will start to move and then stops.  I'm trying to recall what might be causing this... one thought is that it may not have enough end play.... When I first put the balance assembly in yesterday, it started beating right away, but it was very low in the amplitude.  I though this was just because I only had a few winds in the mainspring.  I then noticed though that the hairspring was actually not in the proper orientation with regards to the center wheel (the hairspring was actually above the center wheel and it needs to be below it).  So that problem was solved, and still beating, but then i go to fasten the screw for the balance cock, and it stops.  I forget all the steps I did yesterday, but I could not get it to beat with that low amplitude again.

I've looked at the movement trying to see what might be the issue.  This is the first movement where I took the balance off the cock though as it had a nice screw for the stud.  Could I have gotten something wrong with that?  I thought for a minute that maybe I had the orientation of the balance wheel wrong, but I don't think so. 

When looking at the balance wheel though, it does look dirty even though (especially where the pallet fork will interface with the balance wheel jewel) I gave it a really good soak in hexane in the cleaner.  Possibly I need to try and clean that better, but not exactly sure how to do that without messing up the shellac for the jewel.  Maybe I need to use a piece of pegwood and some hexane and gently scrape that area of the jewel.  It's sort of hard to see in the picture, but hopefully you can see what I am talking about.  The jewel almost looks black.  Recall that at the beginning of this thread I had some stopping issues with this... but they were not immediate stopping...

Here are some pictures, let me know if you need a different picture.

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

 but not exactly sure how to do that without messing up the shellac for the jewel.  Maybe I need to use a piece of pegwood and some hexane and gently scrape that area of the jewel.  

Peg wood is good for intial clean/scrape, but you can also cut a piece of cigarete box ( hard box) to clean pallet face with it, use hexane as well, you may go through  half a dozen pieces to clean the pallet faces to a shine(  pallet face should shine) then you have a chance to examine pallet face and edges under microscope for defects.

The coil looks unlevel and may be rubbing on balance spokes.

 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Nucejoe

[RichardHarris123]

If it's stopping when the balance cock screw is tightened, it sounds like an end shake issue.  Remove the pallet and give the balance wheel a blow with a  puffer, it should swing freely for at  least a minute. 

[kd8tzc]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

Peg wood is good for intial clean/scrape, but you can also cut a piece of cigarete box ( hard box) to clean pallet face with it, use hexane as well, you may go through  half a dozen pieces to clean the pallet faces to a shine(  pallet face should shine) then you have a chance to examine pallet face and edges under microscope for defects.

@Nucejoe What is the best way to hold the balance steady when doing this?  Should I remove it from the stud?

I'm not 100% I understand what a cigarette box is... do you mean something that is hard compressed cardboard like what candy may come in?

47 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

If it's stopping when the balance cock screw is tightened, it sounds like an end shake issue.  Remove the pallet and give the balance wheel a blow with a  puffer, it should swing freely for at  least a minute. 

@RichardHarris123 I'll give that a try.  When you say remove the pallet, I should keep the pallet fork in there, correct?  Also, the keep the balance cock screw tightened when I do all this.  And if it does not swing freely for at least a minute, then try it with the screw removed or loosened (or something)?

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

The coil looks unlevel and may be rubbing on balance spokes.

Sorry, could the stud be in too far making the end of the spring too high?  That's the one picture I didn't take when I took it apart was how it was previously.

[RichardHarris123]

26 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

@Nucejoe What is the best way to hold the balance steady when doing this?  Should I remove it from the stud?

I'm not 100% I understand what a cigarette box is... do you mean something that is hard compressed cardboard like what candy may come in?

@RichardHarris123 I'll give that a try.  When you say remove the pallet, I should keep the pallet fork in there, correct?  Also, the keep the balance cock screw tightened when I do all this.  And if it does not swing freely for at least a minute, then try it with the screw removed or loosened (or something)?

Sorry, could the stud be in too far making the end of the spring too high?  That's the one picture I didn't take when I took it apart was how it was previously.

No, remove the pallet fork entirely, see how the  balance moves. 

[kd8tzc]

Well, I think I found out what the issue was.  Whoever repaired the jewel on the balance wheel did a really messy job.  There appears to she shellac (or something) on the side of the roller (I think that is what is called... the piece of metal that the jewel is fastened into.  I've gotten a good bit of it off, but it also goes on top of that piece but I don't believe I need to worry about that as nothing should interface with that part.

The bigger issue I have now is I decided to use some rodico to hold the thing still, and the spring somehow went under itself and is goofy now.  I'm taking a break away from it to cool off.  I can see what I have to do, but not having a third hand is really hampering me.  

I do have the balance wheel disconnected from the bridge at the stud, and now in a barrel arbor holder holding it gently.  Now I just need to figure out how to fix this mess that I created.

On a brighter note... this is turning into a wonderful learning experience... I truly mean that.  Worst case, I need to get a parts movement and replace the balance wheel, but thankfully you can still find those.