1940's Hamilton Endicott (cal 987A) stopping issue

[Nucejoe]

3 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

could the stud be in too far making the end of the spring too high?  That's the one picture I didn't take when I took it apart was how it was previously.

Is this hairspring a breguet  overcoil?     if so the overcoil might lack enough hight, thats the upper deck/ coil  should be adjusted a bit higher above the lower deck/coil. this will lower the the coil at the bend and level the coil, this might be all needed to level it. There is more to adjusting an overcoil that meets the eye, yet for now, when you are adjusting the overcoil, you are shooting for a level " lower " coil.

 Google hard box cigaret holder, to see the kind of cigaret box I saw when I googled for its name.  yes you are right its hard compressed cardboard, the cardboard  has honey cone surface on the inside of the box. Any cardboard hard enuogh to peg with, thin enough to get in between the two pallet of the fork and honey coned surface, should work.

As far as holding the balance to peg the impulse jewel, I usually wear clean finger tots and hold the rim of the balance with my hands.

You always rins the pegged part anyway.

And Richard is right, lack of end shake on balance staff could be keeping the balance swing freely, though I be happy if it swings less than a minute.

Good luck.

[kd8tzc]

Well, I think I messed up good now.  I noticed last night that I had put a bend in the hairspring where there should not be one.  I think that means it is "kaput".  If I'm wrong and there is a way to fix that, let me know.  I'm going to start seeing if there is a source available for a balance and hairspring assembly for this watch.  Either that or a donor movement that has a complete balance assembly that is in okay shape.

Nothing else, this may be a good time to learn how to take the hairspring off the balance and then reattach it.  Possibly also learn with this one to remove and reinstall a jewel.

Here is a picture of what the bend looks like.  The green arrow is the bend that should be there for the breguet overcoil.... the red arrow is the one that I inadvertently put into the hairspring yesterday.

[Nucejoe]

I know how aweful this is,  just between the two of us I think so does eveyone else here. 

Has the coil coned? 

Yes, the coil is to be removed, sorted out from center outward. 

Good luck .

 

 

 

 

[kd8tzc]

Thanks for the kind words @Nucejoe, I'm really embarrassed at how I buggered the spring up, but, I'm going to make sure I learn from it, and possibly learn a few other things that are related to the balance since this one is most likely junk now.

Someone sent me a couple of pages from one of Fried's book that shows how he recommends trying to fix this, so I will give that a try.  He talks about using a needle on a piece of white glass.  Well, I don't have any white glass, so I will have to figure that out.  I'm not actually sure I even have any glass period that I could use, but I will look for something smooth, flat and level.

When he says needle though, am I to assume he is talking just a regular sewing needle?  He also says the back of a rounded tweezers may be used.  Those I have, they are tapered though.

I'm not sure how the spring comes off.  I was told that it is attached to the collet which looks to be just a friction fit.  I have a few other books so I will take a look at those and see what they recommend.

Regardless though, Fried's language in his how to makes it sound like I shouldn't hold my breath on this, so I think I should try and find a replacement to the complete balance wheel and hairspring.  Tough part is there are not too many donor movements out there that look good... some are not all that expensive, but it's impossible to tell if the balance is complete and does it work (most are non working watches, so who knows, the balance staff may be broken).  But, I'm not throwing the watch in my junk drawer as I love the watch, so time to solve the issues I created.

[Nucejoe]

 As long as thin enough to get between two adjacent coil,  be it needle or oiler or any other tool that you feel you have more control over the work piece,  would do. 

No 4 tweezers is also suitable for the task.

You might find white star foam a good anvil to hold the hairspring coil where put, just stick a needle pin thorugh the collet hole into the foam.

 Yes the collet is friction fit, I use a safety razor blade to remove the hairspring, stick the cutting edge of the razor in between the collet and staff to open a gap, work you way around and keep on widening the gap till collet comes off.

Its true and is a part of learning process, every watch guy has experienced couple of such mishaps, my late watch maker friend used to tell me hairspring is the first part you ruin and the first to teach us patience. 

Notice that master Nickelsilver said he considers Hamilton the best or one of the best American watch manufaturer, so your watch is definately worth restoration. 

Condering its a screw balance, if you can find a new overcoil of the same strength, you can  match it with the balance by adding/ removing weight washers. Familiarize with CGS No which tells what strenght hairspring can be matched with the balance at hand. 

Rgds 

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

piece of white glass

the other popular way of working with hairsprings is with something different. Basically just a ring of aluminum with a piece of glass with a hole in it. Is supposed to give you a better depth of field were working with the hairspring so typically when people are working with hairspring is this is what they would have.

https://www.amazon.com/Aluminum-Hairspring-Holder-Accessories-Holding/dp/B0BLNCG2Z9

 

[kd8tzc]

15 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

the other popular way of working with hairsprings is with something different. Basically just a ring of aluminum with a piece of glass with a hole in it. Is supposed to give you a better depth of field were working with the hairspring so typically when people are working with hairspring is this is what they would have.

https://www.amazon.com/Aluminum-Hairspring-Holder-Accessories-Holding/dp/B0BLNCG2Z9

 

I'm struggling to see how you use this.  Do I put the spring under the glass and put my tweezers through the hole?  I'm a little confused.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

Condering its a screw balance, if you can find a new overcoil of the same strength, you can  match it with the balance by adding/ removing weight washers. Familiarize with CGS No which tells what strenght hairspring can be matched with the balance at hand. 

it's slightly easier than this in that this is a military grade watch. All you have to do is go to eBay they don't seem to have any balance completes right now but you can get a hairspring and somebody else has the timing screws that you need also.

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

Yes the collet is friction fit, I use a safety razor blade to remove the hairspring, stick the cutting edge of the razor in between the collet and staff to open a gap, work you way around and keep on widening the gap till collet comes off.

they do make levers for doing this. Here's an example. Whatever you using to lift the collet has to go straight parallel with the arms under the collet with no prying up until your underneath.

then there's another way that I prefer over the levers for removing hairspring collet but conveniently am not finding a nice picture of the tools so I will skip that for now I'm sure I have pictures lurking somewhere I'm just not finding them

 

25 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

I'm struggling to see how you use this.  Do I put the spring under the glass and put my tweezers through the hole?  I'm a little confused.

I like this it's like the pictures I've seen of people assembling ships in bottles. conveniently M not find a nice picture but here's a video. What you want is a better way of seeing the hairspring so either the hairspring without the balance is placed dead center on top so the collet can dip into the hole in the hairspring can be flat on the glass or the entire balance wheel with the roller table goes into the whole here's a video where you'll see the glass and he drops the balance wheel on it

https://youtu.be/mUTvajqeX3U

 

 

[kd8tzc]

I came across this video this morning.  It is from 1974, and it has Mr Fried in it showing how to untangle, and fix bent hairsprings.  It is wonderful in a number of way... but being able to see, and hear Mr Fried is one of the best parts of this.  I'm posting it for anyone who may also be searching for how to untangle a hairspring.  He makes it look so easy.

 

 

[kd8tzc]

I'm still working on this watch and still having problems.  I bought a parts movement to try and fix some of the issues I have had (hairspring, cracked jewel, stripped stud screw hole).  In cleaning the balance cock bridge on the parts watch, the friction fit jewel came out when I was pegging the jewel.  What is the correct way to put this back in and from which side of the balance cock (inside or the side that the balance would be on possibly)?

I know Hamilton designed these friction fit jewels with the brass type ring to make this easy, so hopefully it is.  I do have an older "new style K&D special" staking set, but I have a mix of stakes, so not sure if I will have the stake that I will need.  If you can guide me with what that might be I would appreciate it.  I would think it would be a flat punch of some sort, but possibly not.

I much appreciate all the help.

Edited August 26, 2023 by kd8tzc

[rehajm]

On 8/12/2023 at 9:16 AM, kd8tzc said:

I came across this video this morning.  It is from 1974, and it has Mr Fried in it showing how to untangle, and fix bent hairsprings.  It is wonderful in a number of way... but being able to see, and hear Mr Fried is one of the best parts of this.  I'm posting it for anyone who may also be searching for how to untangle a hairspring.  He makes it look so easy.

 

 

I’ve referenced that one a bit

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

In cleaning the balance cock bridge on the parts watch, the friction fit jewel came out when I was pegging the jewel. 

I'm not sure if the balance jewel was one that was supposed to go in with a staking set.

notice in the picture from their technical documentation the reference to the plate jewels not the balance jewel

the problem is to find a technical sheet from Hamilton covering the non-plate jewels but I do see there's a reference to 992B and it has a nice drawing

it looks like you're in luck providing your jewel is it a brass setting like shown in the image above then in addition to the staking set if you have any jeweling tool you could use that also. Basically need something flat the push the jewel in.

 

 

 

 

[kd8tzc]

Thanks John... what side of the bridge should I be pressing it in from?

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

what side of the bridge should I be pressing it in from?

if you read the text in the image above the direction you push in is determined by the type a jewel. So in the case of plate jewels you're pushing out. Hamilton is basically predetermined where the jewels should be for the proper end shake.

Then I have the image below for things that have as they word it capped jewels your pushing from the outside in. As because you want the setting itself flat with the plate so when the end stone setting is in place it's in the right location. Notice that the jewel itself is set a little low and the setting so you have the proper spacing that you're supposed to have.

[kd8tzc]

Thanks John... is that all in TD102 as I don't see fig 4 & 5 with their commentary in the document I have.  I only have 2 pages.

Disregard John... I see above you indicated that was from the TD for 992B, which I missed previously.

Edited August 28, 2023 by kd8tzc

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, kd8tzc said:

TD for 992B, which I missed previously.

can't remember if I gave you the 992B document in a case I'm reattaching it. So on a minor irritations of horological documentation from the companies is that sometimes the information is scattered across several documents. Or basically it's mentioned in one but not mentioned in another even though it's relevant.

Hamilton 992B.PDF