Enicar Intermediate Wheel Upside Down?

[Waggy]

I just stripped an Enicar AR 160 ready to clean and put back together, when taking it apart I noticed that the intermediate wheel was installed with the chamfer facing up (see pictures) and the straight edge facing down. I have always seen this the other way around ie chamfer facing down, but there are always exceptions to every rule, so is this one of them? I am wondering if I should reinstall it as I found it, or place it with the chanfer down as I have seen in most other watches where there is a chamfer present on the wheel... any advice from the forum?

I'm not sure if I am the first in the watch as the screw heads looked pristine, but a few were loose, and there were no markings on the back of the case (see pictures below) however, it would be quite difficult to do it on this kind of pressed case back, but there were a lot of strange scratchings on the back of the dial (see pictures), so just wondering if this is how some other watch maker marked their work for this kind of case back?? If I am the first in the watch then the intermediate wheel was installed chamfer up in the factory, so I should reinstall it this way, if I am not the first in there, then maybe the person before me installed it incorrectly? My fear is that if I try it the wrong way I start chipping off teeth from the sliding pinion!

What would you advise?

Watch:

Inside showing movement information:

Case back (outside) showing more movement information:

The intermediate wheel as I found it showing the chamfer facing up:

Clean case back (no markings)

Back of dial scratchings #1:

Back of dial scratchings #2:

[Paul80]

I would guess you are not the first one to work on this watch and going by the markings on the dial back its been worked on a few times but maybe by the same person as its not usual to mark the back of the dial.

Is there any documentation for this watch showing which way the wheel should go, If not I would probably go with fitting it bevel down, like all the others you have worked on.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, Waggy said:

I just stripped an Enicar AR 160 ready to clean and put back together, when taking it apart I noticed that the intermediate wheel was installed with the chamfer facing up (see pictures) and the straight edge facing down. I have always seen this the other way around ie chamfer facing down, but there are always exceptions to every rule, so is this one of them? I am wondering if I should reinstall it as I found it, or place it with the chanfer down as I have seen in most other watches where there is a chamfer present on the wheel... any advice from the forum?

I'm not sure if I am the first in the watch as the screw heads looked pristine, but a few were loose, and there were no markings on the back of the case (see pictures below) however, it would be quite difficult to do it on this kind of pressed case back, but there were a lot of strange scratchings on the back of the dial (see pictures), so just wondering if this is how some other watch maker marked their work for this kind of case back?? If I am the first in the watch then the intermediate wheel was installed chamfer up in the factory, so I should reinstall it this way, if I am not the first in there, then maybe the person before me installed it incorrectly? My fear is that if I try it the wrong way I start chipping off teeth from the sliding pinion!

What would you advise?

Watch:

Inside showing movement information:

Case back (outside) showing more movement information:

The intermediate wheel as I found it showing the chamfer facing up:

Clean case back (no markings)

Back of dial scratchings #1:

Back of dial scratchings #2:

I had the same dilemma with an Oris, one of the first watches i worked on, i made the rookie mistake of not making a mental note of which way up i removed it. I was convinced it would be bevel up that just looked right. I stopped, took a moment to rethink, tried both ways to see how best it interacted. I decided on bevel down and its been fine. I suggest seeing how it meshes with the minute wheel

[Waggy]

All done, the wheel was in upside down... All good now.

[Nucejoe]

Yup chamfer down facilitates mesh with teeth of sliding pinion when you pull the stem out to set time etc.

[Waggy]

I did email the owner of Horology Biology YouTube channel, as he works on many Enicars and he got back to me in less than 5 mins confirming my suspicion that the previous watch tinkerer had probably installed it upside down. 

There were some other hidden problems too, like mismatched screws and for some reason the plastic crystal was glued in place, so I'm very pleased that I was able to bring it back to its former glory... Or at least my version of it.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Waggy said:

I did email the owner of Horology Biology YouTube channel, as he works on many Enicars and he got back to me in less than 5 mins confirming my suspicion that the previous watch tinkerer had probably installed it upside down. 

There were some other hidden problems too, like mismatched screws and for some reason the plastic crystal was glued in place, so I'm very pleased that I was able to bring it back to its former glory... Or at least my version of it.

Nice, I've been after one for a while. It does look like its been overpolished though, the clean lines have gone. Still nice. 

[Jon]

To be very honest, there is very little difference in chamfer down or up in my opinion. Some movements will have the chamfer up and some down. I've tried both ways and there is no difference in setting the hands, which is the most important factor in this. Some intermediate wheels don't have a chamfer on any side, so it isn't really that important. I think some can get too hung up on the stuff that really makes no difference to the running and working of the movement

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Jon

[Waggy]

8 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It does look like its been overpolished

I noticed this also, but then I realised that the case is not ss, only the case back. The case body is plated brass, so if it was over polished it would have exposed the brass under the plating... Unless it was replated, but seeing as there were so many mistakes on the previous rebuild, I don't think it was in the skill set of the previous repairer to plate the watch this well. 

Strange??

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Waggy said:

I noticed this also, but then I realised that the case is not ss, only the case back. The case body is plated brass, so if it was over polished it would have exposed the brass under the plating... Unless it was replated, but seeing as there were so many mistakes on the previous rebuild, I don't think it was in the skill set of the previous repairer to plate the watch this well. 

Strange??

Ah ok maybe it was just designed that way, i didnt notice that on others. The photo also makes the finish look patchy top right and i thought i saw a few dings polished out in that area. Just how it looks. Lovely looking watch and on my list when something  crops up. 

[Waggy]

Ha ha, no I think these are just dirty fingerprints that I didn't clean off properly. 

[oldhippy]

I have know repairs to do this if the teeth are worn on the clutch wheel, some call it the castle wheel. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Waggy said:

Ha ha, no I think these are just dirty fingerprints that I didn't clean off properly. 

Ah yes the old finger grease it plays havoc with the shine. You're slipping mate

31 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

I have know repairs to do this if the teeth are worn on the clutch wheel, some call it the castle wheel. 

I've also noticed that the bevel side starts to lose its mesh quicker there than at the minute wheel interaction, spinning it over sometimes recovers that and hopefully still enables time adjustment.  Funny how some parts are named appropriate to their function and action sometimes because of its location and again another alternative name for what it resembles. I suppose all helpful in a way as you know what it looks like and also what it does.  Bit confusing I've also seen a transmission wheel labeled a crown wheel, when a crown wheel takes the action of winding from the crown ( i guess also could be called a button wheel ) and the transmission wheel transfers winding action from the clutch to energise the mainspring.  No wonder beginners stuggle with terminology and part identity. 

[Galilea]

On 7/26/2023 at 10:42 AM, Waggy said:

I just stripped an Enicar AR 160 ready to clean and put back together, when taking it apart I noticed that the intermediate wheel was installed with the chamfer facing up (see pictures) and the straight edge facing down. I have always seen this the other way around ie chamfer facing down, but there are always exceptions to every rule, so is this one of them? I am wondering if I should reinstall it as I found it, or place it with the chanfer down as I have seen in most other watches where there is a chamfer present on the wheel... any advice from the forum?

I'm not sure if I am the first in the watch as the screw heads looked pristine, but a few were loose, and there were no markings on the back of the case (see pictures below) however, it would be quite difficult to do it on this kind of pressed case back, but there were a lot of strange scratchings on the back of the dial (see pictures), so just wondering if this is how some other watch maker marked their work for this kind of case back?? If I am the first in the watch then the intermediate wheel was installed chamfer up in the factory, so I should reinstall it this way, if I am not the first in there, then maybe the person before me installed it incorrectly? My fear is that if I try it the wrong way I start chipping off teeth from the sliding pinion!

What would you advise?

Watch:

Inside showing movement information:

Case back (outside) showing more movement information:

The intermediate wheel as I found it showing the chamfer facing up:

Clean case back (no markings)

Back of dial scratchings #1:

Back of dial scratchings #2:

About the dial-back scratchings: why do they do it that way? I've always wondered, since seems like a pencil and paper would be far easier.

[oldhippy]

Many repairers would mark there own code on the dial or inside the case. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, Galilea said:

About the dial-back scratchings: why do they do it that way? I've always wondered, since seems like a pencil and paper would be far easier.

I guess so its information that cant be lost its always with the watch, also lets other repairers know when it was serviced. A log would be better though which can also contain any information regarding actual repairs and current overall condition. Maybe too much trouble to bother.

[Galilea]

I have attempted to decipher many such marks, on pocket watches in particular, and most seem meaningless to anyone other than the inscriber. The ones that seem useful to others include service date. Very rarely I have seen a short list of whatever was repaired, which would be of great relevance.

22 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I guess so its information that cant be lost its always with the watch, also lets other repairers know when it was serviced. A log would be better though which can also contain any information regarding actual repairs and current overall condition. Maybe too much trouble to bother.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 minutes ago, Galilea said:

I have attempted to decipher many such marks, on pocket watches in particular, and most seem meaningless to anyone other than the inscriber. The ones that seem useful to others include service date. Very rarely I have seen a short list of whatever was repaired, which would be of great relevance.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Galilea said:

I have attempted to decipher many such marks, on pocket watches in particular, and most seem meaningless to anyone other than the inscriber. The ones that seem useful to others include service date. Very rarely I have seen a short list of whatever was repaired, which would be of great relevance.

 

Usually just a code or repairers Initials and a date. Maybe the code relates to a reference in a log book with more information.

[oldhippy]

Many of these code refer to ticket repair numbers. You will never fully understand them. I never made any I D marks, what I did was have a book with the persons name ticket number watch type and name on the dial and work carried out such as parts replaced.  

[Galilea]

25 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Many of these code refer to ticket repair numbers. You will never fully understand them. I never made any I D marks, what I did was have a book with the persons name ticket number watch type and name on the dial and work carried out such as parts replaced.  

I suppose they alone tended to service any particular watch, so that makes sense; if they knew they would see it again.

Also, isn't "old hippy" an oxymoron? Like "retired artist"? Namaste, England, it's curtains on my day.

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 minutes ago, Galilea said:

Also, isn't "old hippy" an oxymoron? Like "retired artist"? Namaste, England, it's curtains on my day.

Haha you dont need to be young , once a hippy always a hippy. OH rocks it

[oldhippy]

If you say so. The reason I have that user name is I love all the music from around that time, I have nearly 1 TB of music from that time  on one of the many external H D's I have.  

[Neverenoughwatches]

36 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

If you say so. The reason I have that user name is I love all the music from around that time, I have nearly 1 TB of music from that time  on one of the many external H D's I have.  

60s and 70s rock ?

[rehajm]

On 7/27/2023 at 2:11 PM, Waggy said:

All done, the wheel was in upside down... All good now.

Upside down or 'backwards'? Perhaps the horologist thought he was working on a Racine?

(...that was funnier in my head...) Nice looking vintage you have running well anyways. That particular case back troubles me a bit- I think it's supposed to be a smiling dolphin but there's a toothless shark vibe to him...

Edited July 29, 2023 by rehajm

[oldhippy]

28 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

60s and 70s rock ?

A hell of a lot of unknown groups such as garage bands.