How can we determine how the mainspring should be mounted in the barrel?

[VWatchie]

True or false?

Unless we already know which way the mainspring barrel is mounted in an automatic movement, lid up or lid down, then we also can't tell which way the mainspring should be mounted in the barrel.

Or perhaps I could make the following similar statement. If we only have the mainspring barrel, lid, spring and arbor for an automatic movement, we cannot decide which way the mainspring should be mounted in the barrel.

I've thought a lot about this and I'm almost completely sure that the above statements must be true, but I'm not absolutely sure or I wouldn't be writing this post.

What could be an exception is if the bearing in the lid and in the barrel have different diameters so that we can decide which way the arbor should sit because the barrel always (there is probably some strange exception) rotates clockwise seen from the "watchmaker's side".

For a manually wound movement, I suppose we can look at the inside of the barrel to determine which way the mainspring should be mounted. There is usually, but not always, an inner edge with a small heel. In that case, the end of the spring (on the outermost coil) should always, I believe, point away from that heel, but please correct me if I'm wrong. However, there are no hints if the spring has a T-shaped bridle (just a slot in the barrel), so even in those cases, we should not be able to determine which way the mainspring should be mounted.

I suspect that the easiest and perhaps the only way to find out which way the mainspring should be mounted in the barrel is to examine which way the barrel must lie in the movement so that its teeth mesh with the leaves of the pinion of the centre wheel (or in the case of e.g. ETA movements, the intermediate wheel).

What are your opinions, thoughts and experiences? Is it possible to determine which way the mainspring should be mounted in the barrel if all we have is the barrel, the lid, the spring and the arbor?

Edited May 30, 2023 by VWatchie

[kd8tzc]

I would think it is false for a couple of reasons. 

1) I would think that by looking at the arbor and how the mainspring hooks onto it, you should be able to tell.

2) I would think, and I am not 100% certain about this, how many setting wheels are between the mainspring and the stem, we should be able to figure out how it turns.  Or maybe a better way to say that is which way does the barrel arbor turn when you wind it?

Edited May 30, 2023 by kd8tzc

[VWatchie]

23 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

I would think it is false for a couple of reasons. 

1) I would think that by looking at the arbor and how the mainspring hooks onto it, you should be able to tell.

With all due respect. That's answering a question that wasn't asked. We can of course always tell how the arbor should be hooked onto the mainspring. The question is: "Is it possible to determine which way (left or right) the mainspring should be pressed into the barrel if all parts we have is the barrel, the lid, the spring and the arbor?" I'd still say the answer is no.

23 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

2) I would think, and I am not 100% certain about this, how many setting wheels are between the mainspring and the stem, we should be able to figure out how it turns.  Or maybe a better way to say that is which way does the barrel arbor turn when you wind it?

The arbor always winds in a clockwise direction (as seen from the watchmaker's side) and when stationary always makes the mainspring and barrel rotate in a clockwise direction. Again, it has no real bearing on my question.

I still believe that to know how we should press the mainspring into the barrel (left or right), we must know how the teeth of the barrel connect with the centre wheel pinion.

I think you need to study this topic in more detail to be able to refute my initial statements, but thanks for giving it a try! It made me think again 

Anyone else?

Edited May 31, 2023 by VWatchie

[kd8tzc]

@VWatchiethen I am not understanding your question.  Why do we have clockwise and anticlockwise mainsprings then if the arbor always winds in a clockwise direction? 

[VWatchie]

2 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

Why do we have clockwise and anticlockwise mainsprings then if the arbor always winds in a clockwise direction

That's an interesting question for which I have no answer. Maybe it's just a coincidence. Sometimes the barrel is placed in the movement barrel bottom up and sometimes barrel bottom down (lid up or lid down). Inside the barrel, the arbor and the mainspring always rotate in a clockwise direction as seen from the movement's top side (also known as the watchmaker's side, which is opposite the dial side).

So, can we now all agree that the only way to determine how we should press the mainspring into the barrel (left or right), is to see how the teeth of the barrel connect with the leaves of the centre wheel pinion? Or am I still missing something?

[RichardHarris123]

Also an interesting question, why are some barrels up and some down?  

[kd8tzc]

6 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

So, can we now all agree that the only way to determine how we should press the mainspring into the barrel (left or right), is to see how the teeth of the barrel connect with the leaves of the centre wheel pinion? Or am I still missing something?

Above my pay grade.... I'd have to look at a movement and see better.  I don't have any leaves (or grass, sticks or dirt for that matter) in my watches though.

When you say press the mainspring into the barrel (left or right) I assume you are talking about clockwise vs anti-clockwise?

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, VWatchie said:

if all parts we have is the barrel, the lid, the spring and the arbor?" I'd still say the answer is no.

Work backwards from the arbor, and we also have the ratchet wheel, the position of the click shows the position of the ratchet wheel. The ratchet wheel has direct action on arbor, the arbor can only fit one way into the ratchet wheel and the winding rotation on the stem which is always clockwise dictates the rotation direction of the ratchet wheel. If we know which way the click clicks then we know which way the ratchet ratchets which then shows you which way the arbor turns.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches
Added a simplified statement.

[JohnR725]

On 5/30/2023 at 8:33 AM, kd8tzc said:

arbor and how the mainspring hooks onto it, you should be able to tell.

 

4 hours ago, VWatchie said:

With all due respect. That's answering a question that wasn't asked. We can of course always tell how the arbor should be hooked onto the mainspring. The question is: "Is it possible to determine which way (left or right) the mainspring should be pressed into the barrel if all parts we have is the barrel, the lid, the spring and the arbor?" I'd still say the answer is no.

Okay so if I interpret the question correctly if we look at the mainspring barrel only can we tell which direction to put in the mainspring? Then they want to make this more fun it has to be an automatic watch otherwise On a nonautomatic there would be a hook some form that would be the same giveaway as the armor. Then the answer would be no you can't tell. Because you have no reference at all.

Then because barrels come in all different shapes sizes and gear placements in other words they could have their teeth in the middle or on the top or the bottom depending upon the watch that's not very helpful. It's a Seiko watch you don't even have a stem the wind the watch sometimes. The easiest way then would be to place the barrel in the watch and look at how it drives the center wheel. Unless we have a backwards running watch the center wheel goes in one direction.

 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

 

Okay so if I interpret the question correctly if we look at the mainspring barrel only can we tell which direction to put in the mainspring? Then they want to make this more fun it has to be an automatic watch otherwise On a nonautomatic there would be a hook some form that would be the same giveaway as the armor. Then the answer would be no you can't tell. Because you have no reference at all.

Then because barrels come in all different shapes sizes and gear placements in other words they could have their teeth in the middle or on the top or the bottom depending upon the watch that's not very helpful. It's a Seiko watch you don't even have a stem the wind the watch sometimes. The easiest way then would be to place the barrel in the watch and look at how it drives the center wheel. Unless we have a backwards running watch the center wheel goes in one direction.

 

 

 

Some components of every watch ( unless an unusually designed watch )will only ever move in the same direction, clockwise.   Conveniently the first component that energises the watch, the stem. And one of the last components that uses that energy, the center wheel. Both easy to recognise and trace back to the barrel functioning. 

[VWatchie]

14 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

When you say press the mainspring into the barrel (left or right) I assume you are talking about clockwise vs anti-clockwise?

That's correct!

14 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Then the answer would be no you can't tell. Because you have no reference at all.

That was my conclusion as well which I wished to have confirmed by a professional, which I now have. Thanks!

14 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

The easiest way then would be to place the barrel in the watch and look at how it drives the center wheel. Unless we have a backwards running watch the center wheel goes in one direction.

Well put!- 

Edited June 1, 2023 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

38 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

14 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Then the answer would be no you can't tell. Because you have no reference at all.

That was my conclusion as well which I wished to have confirmed by a professional, which I now have. Thanks

Ok well thats confused me now. Won't the surrounding components show which way the arbor turns ?

[nickelsilver]

On many barrels the hole for the arbor is different for the barrel and the lid, so you can determine the arbor orientation that way, and thus the spring orientation. Otherwise, as mentioned already, you want to look at the interaction of the barrel teeth and center pinion- but on some calibers, like the El Primero, the teeth are squarely in the middle of the barrel, and, the cap and barrel have the same size holes for the arbor! So without another barrel to check, it's a guess, but ultimately I wonder if it would really matter?

Edited June 1, 2023 by nickelsilver

[Neverenoughwatches]

19 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

On many barrels the hole for the arbor is different for the barrel and the lid, so you can determine the arbor orientation that way, and thus the spring orientation. Otherwise, as mentioned already, you want to look at the interaction of the barrel teeth and center pinion- but on some calibers, like the El Primero, the teeth are squarely in the middle of the barrel, and, the cap and barrel have the same size holes for the arbor! So without another barrel to check, it's a guess, but ultimately I wonder if it would really matter?

Doesn't the ratchet wheel show which way up for the arbor ?

[nickelsilver]

4 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Doesn't the ratchet wheel show which way up for the arbor ?

Yes, but, if the arbor can go in the barrel either way, with the square and threaded hole peeking out the barrel or the lid, you still don't know which way it goes in.

[VWatchie]

36 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Ok well thats confused me now. Won't the surrounding components show which way the arbor turns ?

Yes, they would. The question though was: "Is it possible to determine which way the mainspring should be mounted in the barrel if all we have is the barrel, the lid, the spring and the arbor?"

30 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

On many barrels the hole for the arbor is different for the barrel and the lid, so you can determine the arbor orientation that way, and thus the spring orientation.

Yes, if the bearing in the lid and the bearing in the barrel have different diameters (or differ in some other way) we can decide how the arbor should sit in the barrel. And, as the ratchet wheel can only be fitted on one side of the arbor, the matter is settled.

 

30 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

on some calibers, like the El Primero, the teeth are squarely in the middle of the barrel, and, the cap and barrel have the same size holes for the arbor! So without another barrel to check, it's a guess, but ultimately I wonder it it would really matter?

Genius! It can't matter!?!?

Ultimately, from a practical standpoint, taking a picture (or making a note) of the barrel with spring and arbor mounted when it is being opened is the way to go, but I felt it was an unusually interesting thought challenge on my journey to better understand how mechanical watch movements work.

Edited June 1, 2023 by VWatchie

[nickelsilver]

To add to the confusion, on some old calibers, but still very 20th century, the winding is through the "rocking bar" system, and there there is a ratchet wheel on the dial side of the barrel, and, sometimes a second one on the movement side, in some cases with squares but no threaded hole (the ratchets are held captive by the mainplate and/or barrel bridge).

[Neverenoughwatches]

24 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Yes, if the bearing in the lid and the bearing in the barrel have different diameters (or differ in some other way) we can decide how the arbor should sit in the barrel. And, as the ratchet wheel can only be fitted on one side of the arbor, the matter is settled.

Ah ok. Sorry i dont know if this adds to the confusion but to clarify things for myself. The way up of the arbor is determined by the ratchet wheel which can only be in one position to interact with the click. If we know which way up the arbor is then we know which way it winds up the mainspring so we know how the mainspring is to be mounted if there is no indication in the barrel. What we dont know 100% of the time is if the barrel is lid up or lid down. But generally we do because its gear teeth are usually off centre and mesh with the center wheel pinion. My giddy aunt watchie what has your simple question started

35 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

To add to the confusion, on some old calibers, but still very 20th century, the winding is through the "rocking bar" system, and there there is a ratchet wheel on the dial side of the barrel, and, sometimes a second one on the movement side, in some cases with squares but no threaded hole (the ratchets are held captive by the mainplate and/or barrel bridge).

A lot of old Oris 40s and 50s are like this with rocker bar winding. The ratchet wheel sits in the mainplate but under the barrel, the click is on the dial side. The arbor has no hole .

[VWatchie]

29 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

but to clarify things for myself.

That sounds like you now nailed it perfectly!

30 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

My giddy aunt watchie what has your simple question started

I was thinking this could possibly lead to a bar fight but it would seem we're now just happily hugging one another! 

On 5/30/2023 at 5:20 PM, VWatchie said:

For a manually wound movement, I suppose we can look at the inside of the barrel to determine which way the mainspring should be mounted. There is usually, but not always, an inner edge with a small heel. In that case, the end of the spring (on the outermost coil) should always, I believe, point away from that heel, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

No one has commented on the above quote from my initial post. Would you say the statement is correct, or did I somehow get it backwards? Can it be understood or should I provide a picture?

[Neverenoughwatches]

11 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

was thinking this could possibly lead to a bar fight but it would seem we're now just happily hugging one another! 

Haha for me to be in a bar fight i would have to be very very drunk and i haven't been that for a very very long time. So hugging is my thing now, people, animals, trees, inanimate objects

17 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

 

No one has commented on the above quote from my initial post. Would you say the statement is correct, or did I somehow get it backwards? Can it be understood or should I provide a picture?

 

18 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

On 5/30/2023 at 4:20 PM, VWatchie said:

For a manually wound movement, I suppose we can look at the inside of the barrel to determine which way the mainspring should be mounted. There is usually, but not always, an inner edge with a small heel. In that case, the end of the spring (on the outermost coil) should always, I believe, point away from that heel, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

No one has commented on the above quote from my initial post. Would you say the statement is correct, or did I somehow get it backwards? Can it be understood or should I provide a picture?

Not quite sure what you mean by - the end of the spring should always point away from that heel ? If its a manual wind then we know the tang end of the spring has to be held stationary to be able to tension up. So however the tang hooks on to the raised heel on the barrel wall for that end to remain fixed then thats the correct way. Nickelsilver im sure gets it but i think you need to elaborate for me to understand, maybe a picture please because I'm curious you've picked up on something .