Setting pallet stones

[kd8tzc]

I watched Alex's video on using shellac to set a pallet stone, but I have a question on the cold shellac method he mentions.

I mixed up some shellac with denatured alcohol... it's about the consistency of honey.  When I apply it, it stays that consistency... so how do I get it to harden?  Do I need to heat it for sometime to heat off the denatured alcohol that is in the mix?  Or am I just supposed to leave it for an extended period and it will take care of itself?

[oldhippy]

If you are using the cold shellec way you will need to heat the tool you are using to harden the shellec. Heaven knows why anyone would want to do it that way. A word of warning I watched his video right through and he uses far to much and how he puts it all across he must think watchmakers who have reached the standard of being able to set pallets stones were born yesterday. He gets a  from me. 

[kd8tzc]

Okay... I do find using the hot method actually easier, although getting a very small piece of shellac is a lot harder than it sounds.  I'm thinking that you need a lot of heat to get the denatured ETOH out of it.

I have a pallet fork that has a stone that is off kilter and missing the pallet gear, so I am trying to make that all work. 

I'll just stick with the hot method.  I thought the sound of being able to easily adjust was a nice bonus for the cold method, but it's easy enough to reheat the shellac and adjust

[nickelsilver]

10 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

Okay... I do find using the hot method actually easier, although getting a very small piece of shellac is a lot harder than it sounds.  I'm thinking that you need a lot of heat to get the denatured ETOH out of it.

I have a pallet fork that has a stone that is off kilter and missing the pallet gear, so I am trying to make that all work. 

I'll just stick with the hot method.  I thought the sound of being able to easily adjust was a nice bonus for the cold method, but it's easy enough to reheat the shellac and adjust

Heat a piece of shellac in a flame until melty, then stick a toothpick or sharpened pegwood in and pull away. When you get the pull-away speed right, you're left with a filament of shellac attached to the wood; break it off a  couple of mm from the "handle" and you have an all-in-one shellac holder/doser/applicator.

[JohnR725]

13 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

but I have a question on the cold shellac method he mentions.

I mixed up some shellac with denatured alcohol... it's about the consistency of honey.  When I apply it, it stays that consistency... so how do I get it to harden?

you're doing something wrong is the problem. I have a link below shellac mixed with alcohol can be used as a finish on wood. You think a suitable finish for wood should have the properties of never hardening?

as a guess you using the wrong form of alcohol. The proper alcohol will dissolve the shellac and evaporate and leave it dry.

 

12 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Heaven knows why anyone would want to do it that way

I was at a lecture once where someone was explaining about mixing shellac with alcohol to make a glue to touch up existing fork/roller. Not as a replacement but just a touch up.

Then the other reason to do it is it does allow you to apply it precisely on stuff like the pallet fork or the roller table. But you do have to allow the alcohol to evaporate otherwise it bubbles when heated up. then yes you should heated up the get of the properly melt and then harden up the way it's supposed to.

12 hours ago, oldhippy said:

A word of warning I watched his video right through and

your definitely better than I'm doing. I've seen some of his videos in the past when somebody said look how wonderful this is and I really can't stomach the watch the entire video as short as it looks its way to edge just isn't my thing. But a lot of people in the group slinky's grades and get really annoyed if you suggest otherwise. But it does present the problem with the Quoted section below

11 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

I thought the sound of being able to easily adjust was a nice bonus for the cold method, but it's easy enough to reheat the shellac and adjust

unless you can point out the exact second were he says that I refuse to watch the video. the problem is escaped that adjustments may require or very likely require you to make more than one adjustment. You're going to be unlikely to make a perfect adjustment the first time. It's one of the beautiful things which shellac you warm it up you can move things around you let it cool down it's nice and hard again.

oh and another minor little mistake I believe he said knowledge is required which I agree with but the actual tools to make an adjustment are cheap. So I wish I knew where he purchased will blow because it's definitely not cheap. This is the kind of tool it's really nice if you want to make precise adjustments to your escapement. then it's been updated probably has a higher price in school we use something similar to this to adjust the escapement. As I said it's time-consuming it's not just put it there in your good to go you may have to adjust it which is why shellac is beautiful and can be heated up and moved around etc.

https://kmtools.com/blogs/news/all-about-shellac-finish

 

[kd8tzc]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

The proper alcohol will dissolve the shellac and evaporate and leave it dry.

 

I'm using the correct form of alcohol (denatured alcohol).  What I should have put in my question is how long does it need to sit to harden?  Does mine harden... yes, in a few hours, but I think a better question I could have asked is how long should it sit before it is solid?

It doesn't matter as I plan on using the hot method and melting the shellac.  Working with the cold method makes a horrible mess if you ask me.  It's hard to get just a small amount of the stuff  and I have a lot more control with using the hot method.

 

[oldhippy]

You only need a tiny bit, I always used the flakes which are brittle when hard so I would just break a tiny piece off. you would be surprised how little you need. The guy in that video was using far to much that is why it always looked a mess.  

[kd8tzc]

1 minute ago, oldhippy said:

I always used the flakes which are brittle when hard so I would just break a tiny piece off

That's what I have too, the flakes.  I took a very small jar (10ml) and put just a tiny amount of the flakes in the jar and then used the end of something blunt to break up the flakes into much smaller pieces.  I am just using one of those very small pieces.  I may have to actually break it up some more as most of these are still too large when you get it near the jewel.  It amazes me how people used to do this years ago before microscopes. 

[nickelsilver]

The melt-on-stick thing really does work. I learned it in school, and have done it ever since and I adjust escapements all the time.

[kd8tzc]

8 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

The melt-on-stick thing really does work. I learned it in school, and have done it ever since and I adjust escapements all the time.

I'm not doubting it does... I just don't have a stick of shellac, I have the flakes. 

Just practicing a little earlier and if I take a larger flake if the shellac, I can sort of do the same thing.  I get the warmer to warm the pallet fork, and then allow the larger flake to touch the warm fork and allow a little to melt on, and then pull the flake away.

[nickelsilver]

I have the flakes too, heat up a part of the flake and poke a toothpick in .

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

I'm using the correct form of alcohol (denatured alcohol).  What I should have put in my question is how long does it need to sit to harden?  Does mine harden... yes, in a few hours, but I think a better question I could have asked is how long should it sit before it is solid?

It doesn't matter as I plan on using the hot method and melting the shellac.  Working with the cold method makes a horrible mess if you ask me.  It's hard to get just a small amount of the stuff  and I have a lot more control with using the hot method.

the problem is are you really using the right alcohol? The problem is denatured alcohol doesn't appear to be an exact substance the second link actually talks about this.

For instance I went and looked at my can of alcohol that I use for rinsing off cleaning rinse it actually says it dissolves shellac. But I don't have a problem using it for rinsing off watch parts including watch parts with shellac because it's only in there for a few seconds and I've never had an issue it's not like it will dissolves shellac instantaneously on contact

I don't recall it taking hours to harden. But I'm a make a wild speculation based on the other link I had were there talking about it as a wood finish there is a reference to the layer height it may be possible if you use too much maybe it's forming a thin layer preventing the rest of it from hardening? The problem is when I last used it was so long ago I don't even remember I just don't think it takes hours to dry and think it should be a lot faster than.

then both methods can make a big mess if you're not careful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2019/08/28/shellac-solvent-grain-alcohol-vs-denatured-alcohol

 

 

 

[kd8tzc]

So when you all are inserting a pallet stone, am I correct to assume when starting (meaning, you took the jewel completely out of the pallet fork, cleaned it all up, and not are getting to the point of inserting the jewel) that you don't start with the jewel placed all the way to the back of the jaw of the exit or entry arm?  My thinking here is that if you shellac it with a bit of a gap behind the stone, if the stone is not where it needs to be it's easier to push the stone in just a hair than pull it out a hair?

[oldhippy]

If it is a stone you are re setting you should note how far back it is, also look at the one on the other side.  If you are starting from scratch meaning the stones are missing then yes that is how I used to start. 

[JohnR725]

48 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

easier to push the stone in just a hair than pull it out a hair

if you look at the escapement adjusting tool I had a image of its purpose is to push the stones in. if on the other hand you have an existing pallet fork if the stone is all the way to the back pushing it out can be interesting but not impossible. I've usually find that the very tiniest screwdriver will push it out.

[VWatchie]

12 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

as a guess you using the wrong form of alcohol. The proper alcohol will dissolve the shellac and evaporate and leave it dry.

I tried  Methylated Spirits from CousinsUK. When warming the mixed shellac it hardened where it was thin but stayed soft where it was thicker. Warming it some more it started to boil but didn't get much harder where it was thick. When warming it even more, it became so thin it floated away from the pallet stones.

Unless someone can tell me exactly what kind of alcohol to use (maybe someone has, but I haven't read all posts) I've given up on this method for now, and it isn't all that difficult to warm cold shellac. All it takes is the right amount of shellac on the rear of the stones (a bit of experimenting is needed to get the necessary feel for the right amount of shellac). Then, gently warm the fork and manipulate the shellac if necessary with tweezers or a pointed piece of pegwood (it won't stick).

EDIT: Read the other posts...

"I was pretty baffled — and then learned it’s now illegal to sell denatured alcohol in California…sort of?" Yep, just replace California with Sweden and there's the problem.

Edited May 19, 2023 by VWatchie

[JohnR725]

12 hours ago, VWatchie said:

exactly what kind of alcohol

the problem is the word denatured alcohol is generic. the problem with a generic term is that it could be a whole variety of alcohols some of which are not the best for shellac. then of course there is the bonus additives to keep you from drinking it which are definitely not alcohol

13 hours ago, VWatchie said:

"I was pretty baffled — and then learned it’s now illegal to sell denatured alcohol in California…sort of?" Yep, just replace California with Sweden and there's the problem.

I was looking into the crazy California situation they like the ban everything by the way soon it will be illegal to be a human being in the state of California because it's bad for the environment.

here's an interesting link of alternatives

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2022/03/21/where-to-buy-denatured-alcohol

I tried to take a quick look at buying alcohol in Sweden and learned more than I want to know and did not get the answer to question I had. Which is what is the highest alcohol content I could buy good looks like grain alcohol would be good. 

 

 

[nickelsilver]

Denatured alcohol is at its base ethyl alcohol. Where it gets tricky is the type of denaturing agents and their quantity. I know that one brand here doesn't burn for heck in an alcohol lamp, and another burns great.

 

Quote from Wikipedia:

Quote

Denatured alcohol is used as a solvent and as fuel for alcohol burners and camping stoves. Because of the diversity of industrial uses for denatured alcohol, hundreds of additives and denaturing methods have been used. The main additive usually is 10% methanol (methyl alcohol), hence the name methylated spirits. Other common additives include isopropyl alcohol, acetone, methyl ethyl ketone, and methyl isobutyl ketone.[1]

Denatured alcohol blends average 60 to 90% ethanol.[2]

I know that isopropyl is almost useless in an alcohol lamp, so I might guess that the bad brand here might have a lot of that, or at least it's on the 60% region of ethyl content. Ethyl is definitely the solvent of choice for dissolving shellac for wood finishing purposes. Luckily we can get that here at 99% purity at the drugstore (and lots of other dangerous things too!) .

[VWatchie]

Had a look on eBay and found this can of "Shellac thinner". It looks old enough to be of the right stuff, but it would cost me approx. $52 before having it in my hands. That is unless customs confiscate the shipment because the authorities assume I'll try to drink it instead of repairing watches.

Forgot the link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/262892819489

On 5/19/2023 at 9:58 AM, nickelsilver said:

you're left with a filament of shellac attached to the wood; break it off a  couple of mm from the "handle" and you have an all-in-one shellac holder/doser/applicator.

I'm trying to imagine how this is done in more detail, but can't quite succeed. I'm thinking that when I press the manufactured filament of shellac against the heated pallet stone, there is no obvious way to remove it without pulling out a new thread of shellac 

EDIT:

Maybe you can pull the filament of shellac away from the pallet stone very quickly?

Edited May 20, 2023 by VWatchie

[nickelsilver]

47 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I'm trying to imagine how this is done in more detail, but can't quite succeed. I'm thinking that when I press the manufactured filament of shellac against the heated pallet stone, there is no obvious way to remove it without pulling out a new thread of shellac 

EDIT:

Maybe you can pull the filament of shellac away from the pallet stone very quickly?

Yes, the fork is held on the heated plate either by tweezers or the clamp (Bergeon tool), you touch where you want the shellac, it melts on the fork/jewel, and come away quickly. There's usually a bit that wants to come away with the applicator, but it pulls back in to the melted mass. With a little practice you find the right size filament on the wood, and how quickly to pull away quite quickly.

[HectorLooi]

On 5/20/2023 at 6:34 AM, VWatchie said:

Unless someone can tell me exactly what kind of alcohol to use (maybe someone has, but I haven't read all posts)

Traditionally, shellac is dissolved in methanol. Wood spirit, the type you get from paint shops, the type that make people go blind if drunk.

Ever since covid, denatured alcohol, methylated spirit and IPA prices have gone crazy. I think it's even being diluted. I recently refilled my spirit burner with 99% denatured alcohol and it wouldn't burn.

[VWatchie]

9 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Traditionally, shellac is dissolved in methanol. Wood spirit, the type you get from paint shops, the type that make people go blind if drunk.

Unfortunately, that too doesn't seem all that easy to buy where I live. Anyway, I need to do some more research.

9 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I think it's even being diluted. I recently refilled my spirit burner with 99% denatured alcohol and it wouldn't burn.

I tried Cousins' Methylated Spirits in my alcohol lamp and it was super easy to ignite and burned cleanly. However, as mentioned, not good for mixing with shellac.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Unfortunately, that too doesn't seem all that easy to buy where I live. Anyway, I need to do some more research.

I tried Cousins' Methylated Spirits in my alcohol lamp and it was super easy to ignite and burned cleanly. However, as mentioned, not good for mixing with shellac.

There seems to be too many variables with the fluid application of shellac. I dont know too much about it but personally i would stick to something i know that is going to work and practise that method on old stock pallet stones.

[VWatchie]

7 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

personally i would stick to something i know that is going to work and practise that method on old stock pallet stones.

I could have written that sentence myself. My method, in short, is to place a small piece of shellac at the rear end of the pallet stone and gently heat it until it flows out, possibly manipulating it a bit with my tweezers. Anyway, I'm going to try with a filament of shellac as described by @nickelsilver to see how I feel about it. With a bit of practice, I think it could be both the most precise and the most convenient method.