Some Basic Balance Installation Questions

[Nucejoe]

Though the coil isn't perfectly centered, its causing causing the problem, as I suspected before.

The coil is coned upward so might rub on balance spoke and stop the watch.

Does the fork move as you turn the balance wheel about or less than 30degrees? 

 

 

[Macavity]

42 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Is the balance oscillating freely? To test, you can simply rotate the movement holder a few degrees back and forth to get the balance started.

Yes, the balance oscillates freely in both directions and the hairspring expands and contracts freely as it turns. Basically, it looks exactly as it should look based on pictures/videos of a functioning movement. 

38 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Though the coil isn't perfectly centered, its causing causing the problem, as I suspected before.

The coil is coned upward so might rub on balance spoke and stop the watch.

Does the fork move as you turn the balance wheel about or less than 30degrees? 

 

 

The fork doesn’t move at all when I nudge the balance left and right and let it oscillate. It’s as if the impulse jewel isn’t connecting with the pallet fork horns at all. 
 

The balance wheel behaves the same whether the pallet fork and pallet bridge are in the movement or not. 

[JohnR725]

I snipped out some images. They hairspring isn't centered but it's not enough to be a crisis's. But in one of the images it's obvious they hairspring is not flat and where I put the little mark notice how low they hairspring goes down. If the hairspring touches the balance arm that would be why your balance wheel doesn't seem to oscillate.

One of the hardest things for anybody to see is whether they hairspring is touching the balance wheel. I've attached a fourth image where I put an arrow notice they hairspring as it crosses over the balance arm does it cross over the arm or is it touching the arm? Even sometimes tell by the lighting shadow if it's actually up a little bit. Or if you're really careful you just gently push down on the outer coil and see if it actually moves or whether it's touching the arm. But very gently kiss we don't want to distort the hairspring anymore than it already is.

As far as the watch being in beat it looks really really close in Bill adjusts that so that's not the issue. The most likely issue with any of us starting out is the hairspring is touching the balance arms and then the balance definitely will not run.

Then not enough resolution look in sideways look at the bottom of the balance wheel is the pivot in the hole or is it next to the hole? Look at the picture I snipped out of the hairspring not being flat it almost looks like the pivot is not in the hole?

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Then not enough resolution look in sideways look at the bottom of the balance wheel is the pivot in the hole or is it next to the hole? Look at the picture I snipped out of the hairspring not being flat it almost looks like the pivot is not in the hole?

This then explains the cone also  impulse jewel passing over the fork horn, but how is it that balance moves freely? 

Is cock screw tightened all the way home? in which case you might have broken the upper pivot. 

[Macavity]

10 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

This then explains the cone also  impulse jewel passing over the fork horn, but how is it that balance moves freely? 

Is cock screw tightened all the way home? in which case you might have broken the upper pivot. 

 

I can confirm that the pivot is 100% in the hole, I gently guided it in using a 10x loupe. However, it's really difficult to see if I got the pivot into the hole with the pallet fork and pallet fork bridge installed, so maybe I wasn't getting it into the hole before? However, even when the pallet fork and bridge were installed, I was still getting the clean oscillations in both directions on the balance wheel, which makes me think the pivot was in fact in the hole - otherwise it wouldn't be cleanly oscillating, correct?

 

@JohnR725, I believe the hairspring is not in contact with the balance arms at all. Here are a few pictures of the balance after I gently lifted it out of the movement:

 

[JohnR725]

4 minutes ago, Macavity said:

Here are a few pictures of the balance after I gently lifted it out of the movement:

Well I agree in your pictures the hairspring is not touching the balance wheel that problem is solved. Except I was concerned about the hairspring being flat in the watch.

Then if you want to get a better view of what's going on take the entire watch a part and assemble with only the pallet fork in the balance wheel. Then you'll have a much better view of things and you should build a look in better and see why did not engaging the pallet fork. Because it sounds like everything is right it should be running?

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Macavity said:

 

I can confirm that the pivot is 100% in the hole, I gently guided it in using a 10x loupe. However, it's really difficult to see if I got the pivot into the hole with the pallet fork and pallet fork bridge installed, so maybe I wasn't getting it into the hole before? However, even when the pallet fork and bridge were installed, I was still getting the clean oscillations in both directions on the balance wheel, which makes me think the pivot was in fact in the hole - otherwise it wouldn't be cleanly oscillating, correct?

 

@JohnR725, I believe the hairspring is not in contact with the balance arms at all. Here are a few pictures of the balance after I gently lifted it out of the movement:

 

Hiya mac. Have we established that the beat is somewhere near. As Nucejoe mentioned a while back that the impulse jewel seemed way off. With a large beat error the hairspring will want to pull the balance wheel quite far one way. You may only get one or two oscillations before it wants to stop. Just checking that you have already ruled this out.

[nickelsilver]

As noted by John the hairspring is definitely not flat in the watch, and to my eyes definitely looks like it's touching the balance arms. With the fork out, balance in, and a quick back and forth twist to the movement, the balance should oscillate freely for 30-60 seconds. In the final bit it might only be swinging 5 degrees or so but be doing that for 10+ seconds. Any motion of the movement- just shifting the movement holder on the bench- should set the balance into motion again, if only a few degrees, for some seconds.

 

If I read right, you say the fork isn't engaging with the balance at all? Keep in mind the fork only moves through about 12 degrees from banking to banking. If you aren't accustomed to seeing the action of the fork, it might look like it's not engaging but it is.

[Macavity]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Well I agree in your pictures the hairspring is not touching the balance wheel that problem is solved. Except I was concerned about the hairspring being flat in the watch.

Then if you want to get a better view of what's going on take the entire watch a part and assemble with only the pallet fork in the balance wheel. Then you'll have a much better view of things and you should build a look in better and see why did not engaging the pallet fork. Because it sounds like everything is right it should be running?

Sounds good, I’ll remove the wheel train and wheel train bridge and then reinstall the pallet fork, pallet fork bridge and balance to try to get a better view of what’s going on.

 

58 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hiya mac. Have we established that the beat is somewhere near. As Nucejoe mentioned a while back that the impulse jewel seemed way off. With a large beat error the hairspring will want to pull the balance wheel quite far one way. You may only get one or two oscillations before it wants to stop. Just checking that you have already ruled this out.

This is more or less what’s happening to me. I nudge the balance wheel with my tweezers or with my blower and it swings back and forth 2-3 times before stopping again. The balance behaves this way whether the pallet fork and pallet fork bridge are installed or not. That’s why I’m thinking the impulse jewel isn’t catching the pallet fork horns at all - the balance acts the same way regardless of whether the fork is there or not.

 

22 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

As noted by John the hairspring is definitely not flat in the watch, and to my eyes definitely looks like it's touching the balance arms. With the fork out, balance in, and a quick back and forth twist to the movement, the balance should oscillate freely for 30-60 seconds. In the final bit it might only be swinging 5 degrees or so but be doing that for 10+ seconds. Any motion of the movement- just shifting the movement holder on the bench- should set the balance into motion again, if only a few degrees, for some seconds.

 

If I read right, you say the fork isn't engaging with the balance at all? Keep in mind the fork only moves through about 12 degrees from banking to banking. If you aren't accustomed to seeing the action of the fork, it might look like it's not engaging but it is.

This is interesting. When I say I’m getting oscillations of the balance wheel, I mean only 2-3 oscillations, so it swings back for maybe a second or two - nowhere near 10 seconds, let alone 60 seconds. And yes, it doesn’t seem that the impulse jewel is engaging the pallet fork at all. The balance behaves the same way, whether the pallet fork and pallet fork bridge are installed or not.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Macavity said:

This is more or less what’s happening to me. I nudge the balance wheel with my tweezers or with my blower and it swings back and forth 2-3 times before stopping again. The balance behaves this way whether the pallet fork and pallet fork bridge are installed or not. That’s why I’m thinking the impulse jewel isn’t catching the pallet fork horns at all - the balance acts the same way regardless of whether the fork is there or not.

Ah ok so maybe just a balance issue at this stage

1 hour ago, Macavity said:

Sounds good, I’ll remove the wheel train and wheel train bridge and then reinstall the pallet fork, pallet fork bridge and balance to try to get a better view of what’s going on.

 

This is more or less what’s happening to me. I nudge the balance wheel with my tweezers or with my blower and it swings back and forth 2-3 times before stopping again. The balance behaves this way whether the pallet fork and pallet fork bridge are installed or not. That’s why I’m thinking the impulse jewel isn’t catching the pallet fork horns at all - the balance acts the same way regardless of whether the fork is there or not.

 

This is interesting. When I say I’m getting oscillations of the balance wheel, I mean only 2-3 oscillations, so it swings back for maybe a second or two - nowhere near 10 seconds, let alone 60 seconds. And yes, it doesn’t seem that the impulse jewel is engaging the pallet fork at all. The balance behaves the same way, whether the pallet fork and pallet fork bridge are installed or not.

Is this the same case when you palm rotate the movement upside down or else flip the movement holder over and half spin, observe the balance through the dial side ? Lets have a looksee at the staff pivots mac.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Have we established that the beat is somewhere near. As Nucejoe mentioned a while back that the impulse jewel seemed way off. With a large beat error the hairspring will want to pull the balance wheel quite far one way. You may only get one or two oscillations before it wants to stop. Just checking that you have already ruled this out.

This has not been established because somebody doesn't actually know how to do this yet.

3 hours ago, Macavity said:

This is more or less what’s happening to me. I nudge the balance wheel with my tweezers or with my blower and it swings back and forth 2-3 times before stopping again. The balance behaves this way whether the pallet fork and pallet fork bridge are installed or not. That’s why I’m thinking the impulse jewel isn’t catching the pallet fork horns at all - the balance acts the same way regardless of whether the fork is there or not.

I think there was an initial confusion with thinking the balance wheel roller jewel was grossly out of alignment because it's not in alignment with one of the arms. In a lot of ugly three armed watches the roller jewel would be 180° where this one is. But this one is more or less where it's supposed to be. At least the pictures we have that aren't really good enough to see this.

So at least in the picture I have that I snipped out below the roller jewel is in between two balance arms which is perfectly acceptable. So basically if you were to look straight down adjust the balance arms they should be equally spaced on either side of this pallet fork and you would be centered and remember the watch did run in the first place. So other than moving of the stud and bending the hairspring around it should be more or less where it's supposed to be. But is also really important skill for somebody learn how to look for that

This is where having just the balance wheel and pallet fork in should help hopefully.

Looking to the pictures I found another one as you can see the roller jewel is supposed to be located between the arms and in this image it looks pretty darn close it is off a little bet it looks like the stud should go a little counterclockwise perhaps but not very much and it shouldn't be enough to keep the watch from running at all.

Then yes it's a lot easier if you can just put the balance arm right over the pallet fork jewels but still it's a vital skill the bill of visually look in and see if the pallet fork is where it's supposed to be with no power. The same vital skillets necessary to be able to see if they hairspring is actually flat in the watch.

A lot of times it's easy to see if there's banking pins which this watch doesn't appear to have it has a milled slot in the pallet fork bridge. But still he should bill will look in and see if the fork is centered with no power. Then I attached a drawing which nicely is missing the hairspring which interferes with you seeing that but they give you an idea what you're looking for.

 another way to do this for learning is is to look at the bottom layer balance wheel drawn invisible line from the roller jewel to  the outer edge and put a small mark then look at where that is on the bottom and Mark on the top of the balance wheel. Then when the balance wheel is in with no power that Mark should be over in alignment. As I said it's a lot easier if the roller jewel is directly under one of the arms can as you can put the arm right over the pallet fork jewel and you know that year in beat.

 

 

[Macavity]

Thanks again for the input, everyone. After last night, I'm wondering if my issue might actually be the pallet fork. After reinstalling it and winding the watch, I still get clean, solid left to right movements as the pallet fork moves along the escape wheel, but I'm noticing a lot of up and down wobble in the fork as well. From my understanding, that's not supposed to be there, correct? The pictures of the movement are blurry and not very good, but the first pic is the fork as high as it can go, and the second pic is the fork as low as it could go after I gently nudged it with my tweezers. Could it be an issue with the pivots on the pallet fork? Or is there supposed to be a little bit of up and down play on the fork when it's secured in place under the pallet fork bridge?

 

Also, @JohnR725, thanks for the explanation about focusing on the point between the two balance arms to set the impulse jewel properly.

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Macavity

[Neverenoughwatches]

32 minutes ago, Macavity said:

After last night, I'm wondering if my issue might actually be the pallet fork

Didn't you mention that the balance wouldn't oscillate even - without - the pallet fork installed ? The lever (pallet fork) seems to be doing what it should and will have some end and side shake. Knowing how much will become clearer to you with practice and experience. It was seeming like the issue is with the balance have very little free oscillation 

[nickelsilver]

You're missing the lower pivot on the fork.

 

And, hairspring is rubbing the balance.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Macavity said:

if my issue might actually be the pallet fork

One of the problems in watch repair in particular in discussion groups is answering questions. You have a question you have a problem we give you answers but if you don't ask the right question you don't necessarily get the right answer. The problem with newbies in watch repair is everything is new that means you're not going to actually see a lot of times what the problem is. Or worse yet you may end up with multiple of problems conceivably all at the same time.

1 hour ago, Macavity said:

I still get clean, solid left to right movements as the pallet fork moves along the escape wheel, but I'm noticing a lot of up and down wobble in the fork as well

Then this is a perfect example the pallet fork seems be working just fine. Except if it's missing a pivot yes is going to wobble up-and-down conceivably it can go down so far as you've discovered that the roller jewel will not engage it at all. This now means a new pallet fork or a new pallet fork arbor which you're not going to have the tools to put in so it's a new pallet fork which basically is a new watch as they typically don't sell parts for these. 

[Macavity]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Didn't you mention that the balance wouldn't oscillate even - without - the pallet fork installed ? The lever (pallet fork) seems to be doing what it should and will have some end and side shake. Knowing how much will become clearer to you with practice and experience. It was seeming like the issue is with the balance have very little free oscillation 

The balance oscillates freely in either direction, but only for a second or two. It behaves this way whether or not the the fork is installed. 
 

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

You're missing the lower pivot on the fork.

 

And, hairspring is rubbing the balance.

Yes, I dropped it in my carpet this morning when trying to put it back in. I’ve disassembled and reassembled the pallet fork and pallet bridge a few times, and I still get the same up/down motion when both screws are holding the pallet fork bridge down. 

Which picture do you see the hairspring rubbing against the balance? I still get a few quick oscillations when I manually move the balance wheel, would this still happen if the hairspring was rubbing against the balance. 

21 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

One of the problems in watch repair in particular in discussion groups is answering questions. You have a question you have a problem we give you answers but if you don't ask the right question you don't necessarily get the right answer. The problem with newbies in watch repair is everything is new that means you're not going to actually see a lot of times what the problem is. Or worse yet you may end up with multiple of problems conceivably all at the same time.

Then this is a perfect example the pallet fork seems be working just fine. Except if it's missing a pivot yes is going to wobble up-and-down conceivably it can go down so far as you've discovered that the roller jewel will not engage it at all. This now means a new pallet fork or a new pallet fork arbor which you're not going to have the tools to put in so it's a new pallet fork which basically is a new watch as they typically don't sell parts for these. 

Good to know that the fork seems to be working fine. I have a 6498 clone arriving later this week and I’ll probably order another 6497 for spare parts as well, then I’ll have something to actually compare it to.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Macavity

[JohnR725]

16 minutes ago, Macavity said:

Good to know that the fork seems to be working fine.

Just to be hundred percent clear it may be working fine as far as snapping back and forth but if it's missing its lower pivot it needs to be replaced as it's not really going to work fine. It's the problem of it looks like it's working fine when you push on it it's snaps back and forth but if it's wobbling up and down and it's not engaging the balance wheel it's not working

That as far as the balance wheel of the hairspring issue let's try a test. If they rotate the balance wheel 180° either with the pallet fork in her out shouldn't matter. The balance arm that's currently under the balance bridge basically rotate that around until it's on top of the jewel for the pallet fork that would be exactly 180°. Looking at a watch release the balance wheel and I'm getting about 12 seconds on mine and the one that I have hasn't been serviced in a very long time so let's just say to be safe you should get 10 seconds of running of oscillation on 180° a rotation of the balance wheel anything less your hairspring is probably rubbing or there's some other problem that we don't know about yet. Because as a reminder the balance wheel has to turn very very freely the watches to run right

[Nucejoe]

             

  " YOU'RE MISSING THE LOEWR PIVOT ON THE FORK"

AND, HAIRSPRING IS RUBBING THE BALANCE.

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

29 minutes ago, Macavity said:

The balance oscillates freely in either direction, but only for a second or two. It behaves this way whether or not the the fork is installed. 
 

Yes, I dropped it in my carpet this morning when trying to put it back in. I’ve disassembled and reassembled the pallet fork and pallet bridge a few times, and I still get the same up/down motion when both screws are holding the pallet fork bridge down. 

Which picture do you see the hairspring rubbing against the balance? I still get a few quick oscillations when I manually move the balance wheel, would this still happen if the hairspring was rubbing against the balance. 

Good to know that the fork seems to be working fine. I have a 6498 clone arriving later this week and I’ll probably order another 6497 for spare parts as well, then I’ll have something to actually compare it to.

The pallet may or not be working fine, that depends on how you perceive its movements, i think we are all guessing here. And as John suggests we answer based on your questions but also on your answers to our questions. No disrespect but you may or may not be giving us the correct answers to our questions. If that makes sense. Can we determine for sure that a pivot is broken on the pallet fork. There is a strong chance as its been in and out a few times now. In time you would probably make an educated guess by watching its action in the movement. But to be sure, take anice clear photo with your phone of the pallet fork's pivots .Forget any macro setting you have as that doesn't always get you close enough. Hold your loupe against your phone lens then focus in and snap a shot. You will need to stabilise your hands as the close magnification will really show hand shake. So something like this. This is from a crappy 150 quid samsung phone and a x10 loupe. The second one is from a x10 scope

36 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

             

  " YOU'RE MISSING THE LOEWR PIVOT ON THE FORK"

AND, HAIRSPRING IS RUBBING THE BALANCE.

 

 

Not sure what you are trying to say here Nucejoe , i think i may have just heard you though over here in the UK though.

45 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

             

  " YOU'RE MISSING THE LOEWR PIVOT ON THE FORK"

AND, HAIRSPRING IS RUBBING THE BALANCE.

 

 

Its going to be a funny old day Nucejoe, people not listening and others getting a bit shouty .

[Macavity]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

             

  " YOU'RE MISSING THE LOEWR PIVOT ON THE FORK"

AND, HAIRSPRING IS RUBBING THE BALANCE.

 

 

The lower screw fell in my carpet this morning before I took the picture. I’ve taken the whole assembly out and reinstalled it 4-5 times to experiment and I still get the up and down wobble on the fork with both screws in. I found the screw after the pictures and put it back in though.

 

40 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The pallet may or not be working fine, that depends on how you perceive its movements, i think we are all guessing here. And as John suggests we answer based on your questions but also on your answers to our questions. No disrespect but you may or may not be giving us the correct answers to our questions. If that makes sense. Can we determine for sure that a pivot is broken on the pallet fork. There is a strong chance as its been in and out a few times now. In time you would probably make an educated guess by watching its action in the movement. But to be sure, take anice clear photo with your phone of the pallet fork's pivots .Forget any macro setting you have as that doesn't always get you close enough. Hold your loupe against your phone lens then focus in and snap a shot. You will need to stabilise your hands as the close magnification will really show hand shake. So something like this. This is from a crappy 150 quid samsung phone and a x10 loupe. The second one is from a x10 scope

Not sure what you are trying to say here Nucejoe , i think i may have just heard you though over here in the UK though.

It’s going to be a funny old day Nucejoe, people not listening and others getting a bit shouty .

I’ll try to take a better picture through a loupe today, I can’t tell for sure if a pivot is broken or not, although the fork seems to be functioning and interacting with the escape wheel as it should as far as the left and right motions  

 

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Just to be hundred percent clear it may be working fine as far as snapping back and forth but if it's missing its lower pivot it needs to be replaced as it's not really going to work fine. It's the problem of it looks like it's working fine when you push on it it's snaps back and forth but if it's wobbling up and down and it's not engaging the balance wheel it's not working

That as far as the balance wheel of the hairspring issue lets try a test. If they rotate the balance wheel 180° either with the pallet fork in her out shouldn't matter. The balance arm that's currently under the balance bridge basically rotate that around until it's on top of the jewel for the pallet fork that would be exactly 180°. Looking at a watch release the balance wheel and I'm getting about 12 seconds on mine and the one that I have hasn't been serviced in a very long time so let's just say to be safe you should get 10 seconds of running of oscillation on 180° a rotation of the balance wheel anything less your hairspring is probably rubbing or there's some other problem that we don't know about yet. Because as a reminder the balance wheel has to turn very very freely the watches to run right

When I try to manually spin the balance in either direction like this, I get only 1-2 seconds of motion, nowhere near 10 seconds. So it sounds like the hairspring rubbing is the issue based on that, although I’m slowly and carefully lowering the balance in through a 10x loupe and it visually looks as if everything is settling in correctly.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Macavity

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 minutes ago, Macavity said:

When I try to manually spin the balance in either direction like this, I get only 1-2 seconds of motion, nowhere near 10 seconds. So it sounds like the hairspring rubbing is the issue based on that, although I’m slowly and carefully lowering the balance in through a 10x loupe and it visually looks as if everything is settling in correctly.

Edited 7 minutes ago by Macavity

Might be worth a close up look of balance pivots as well. The staff can potentially run on its bottom cone for a few oscillations after its pivot is broken. You would hopefully notice this though with some slack at the top pivot. Still worth ticking it off the check list.

[RichardHarris123]

10 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Might be worth a close up look of balance pivots as well. The staff can potentially run on its bottom cone for a few oscillations after its pivot is broken. You would hopefully notice this though with some slack at the top pivot. Still worth ticking it off the check list.

One of my watches runs pretty well dial up with a broken balance pivot.  Won't run in any other orientation. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

One of my watches runs pretty well dial up with a broken balance pivot.  Won't run in any other orientation. 

Its possible for that to happen. I imagine the timekeeping will be terrible and keeping it perfectly level while wearing it would be something of an arduous task.

[LittleWatchShop]

I am scratching my head here.  The pallet fork is dead.  @nickelsilversaid it and @Nucejoeemphasized it.  There is nothing more to do...nothing more to understand.

Scrap the movement and get another.

[nickelsilver]

4 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I am scratching my head here.  The pallet fork is dead.  @nickelsilversaid it and @Nucejoeemphasized it.  There is nothing more to do...nothing more to understand.

Scrap the movement and get another.

And- the hairspring is rubbing on the balance arms.