Vibration point , timing-screws & regulator ?

[Endeavor]

Yesterday, working on a mangled up pocket-watch hairspring, the spring broke (more or less spontaneously) at the stud. Now, I could feed a "new" part of the spring into the stud, but this changes the vibration point.

This time, I had another hairspring from a spare-parts movement, so my question is in this case pure theoretical. Next time, there may be no back-up available, so it's better to get my head around this subject on beforehand.

I guess the vibration-point is a combination of the strength of the hairspring and the weight of the balance. If I were to feed a "new" part of the hairspring into the stud and increase the weight of the timing screws (fully poised) until I get the correct daily-rate on the timegrapher, would that work satisfactory?

If I were to, by increasing the weight of the timing screws, so the daily-rate is spot-on; could a watch run satisfactory without a regulator at all? Is that not how Rolex does it?

Is all what a regulator does, is to change the vibration point, and therefore the beats per hour, and therefor the daily-rate, or is there more to it ?

Is a regulator a cheap / fast option to regulate the vibration point, but if time ( and money) is spend, can a watch do entirely without a regulator?

I'm very interested in your thoughts

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Endeavor

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

"new" part of the spring into the stud, but this changes the vibration point

Unless you have a free sprung balance wheel in other words no regulator the vibration point is where the regulator is. So if you were to feed a little bit of the hairspring end in to the stud and providing you had regulation range Everything should be fine.

1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

If I were to, by increasing the weight of the timing screws, so the daily-rate is spot-on; could a watch run satisfactory without a regulator at all? Is that not how Rolex does it?

Typically when you vibrate the hairspring as I said the vibration point is where the regulator should go. If you vibrated the hairspring to exact timing and put the stud there by theory the watch would keep perfect time. But being that perfect is difficult so you could toss in some timing screws then you would have some leeway either side. That is basically what Rolex did.

Oh and while you're at it for questions if you're going to have a free sprung balance wheel would be better to have a flat hairspring Or a over coil hairspring? I need to leave some questions for other people to answer so I will leave that one unanswered

1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

Is all what a regulator does

Actually what a regulator does is screws up timekeeping. The problem with a regulator is the pins spacing. Flat hairspring needs a little bit of breathing room and A over coil should be as tight as possible but the hairspring still has to slide through. If the pins spacing isn't perfect you'll Get timing variations based on amplitude. If they hairspring favors one pin over the other you can also have timing issues. But with all is little problems it still allows you to regulate the watch without having timing screws Which is what you typically have a modern watches.

 

 

[Endeavor]

Thanks JohnR725

I thought that the vibration-point was at the point at which the stud had to be mounted. So indeed, if the vibration-point is where the regulator pins should be, all the regulator does is to change the vibration-point (= BPH = Daily-rate).

In case of my broken hairspring, when mounting a "new" part of the spring in the stud, the vibration point shifts towards the stud, most likely exceeding the range of the regulator. But, if I understand correctly, if I were to (within reason) increase the weight of the balance wheel, the vibration point shifts again, bringing it back into the regulator range (?)

But there has to be a catch !? In my case the hairspring broke at the stud, but what if the hairspring breaks at a 1/4, 1/3 or 1/2? It seems unlikely to me that I can keep shortening the hair-spring, keep increasing the balance weight and still end up with a happy running watch?

What else come into play? The stiffness of the hair-spring, lack of sufficient amplitude?

Edited February 10, 2023 by Endeavor

[nickelsilver]

If you shorten the spring, in your case by putting a little more in the stud, and shift the regulator to the original pinning point, the balance thinks everything is exactly the same. With a flat hairspring this is often possible, especially if it's a more modern regulator: older regulators with a tail will have a more limited range of movement than one where the pins can move independently from the tail. That's if you put just the minimum amount in the stud to get it held correctly.

 

If you start adding weight to compensate the shorter spring, a couple of things happen (the "catch"). One is that the pinning point at the outside of the spring is no longer aligned with the pinning point at the collet, which it would be normally in a wrist watch. This can have a real effect on timing in different positions. Then, there is something called the "Q" factor, which is the quality of the match between spring and balance (and some other things); this will change too, and not for the better.

 

The reality though is the watch will probably time just fine with some added weight to compensate the shorter spring. If you're trying to get it to rate within 3 seconds in 6 positions at full wind and 24h you might find you can't get there; but you might find that's true with the same caliber in pristine condition as well.

[Endeavor]

That's very interesting stuff and the overall picture start to form in my head. Thanks a lot for that !

[mikepilk]

I've had two instances recently of hairsprings breaking at the stud. I re-pinned them, and added more weight, and they run fine. Not chronometer standard, but they're just average 15J movements.

My problem is finding timing washers for wristwatches. I have a selection for pocket watches, and the Size 0 are OK for bigger balances, but anyone knows where I can get some smaller ones ..... ?

[Nucejoe]

5 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

the pinning point at the outside of the spring is no longer aligned with the pinning point at the collet, 

I re-align  pinning points by adjustment  the spring near the collet. Would that do any good?

TIA

[nickelsilver]

1 minute ago, Nucejoe said:

I re-align  pinning points by adjustment  the spring near the collet. Would that do any good?

TIA

Yes, you can do that. There's a nice calculation for how to do it, but you end up shortening the spring more (at the collet), requiring moving the pinning point further toward the stud at the outside. It can get tricky.

 

Timing washers are tough. I have a bunch of assortments, all acquired many years ago (a couple in the last few years), all must be at least 50 years old. When the subject came up here a while back I was astonished that no supplier has them, other than utterly random assortments (next to useless). I dug up one maker here but found out the owner had recently passed and they were stopping the little production they did.

 

So it's ebay etc., try to find real assortments, from the u.s. there were several suppliers like Newall and others, as Mike noticed often in sets for either wristwatch or pocket. Bergeon made an excellent assortment that spanned tiny ladies calibers to big pocket watches. I'm very glad to have a couple of those.

 

I might go weeks without using them, then use 8 on one watch and a few more on others in a span of days. Well worth searching for and having

[Endeavor]

30 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

My problem is finding timing washers for wristwatches.

These washers seem hard to get

I bought an assortment of timing screw by CousinsUK ( https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/balance-screws-pocketwatch-assorted?code=S37312 )

Most likely you will have to (I had to) grind them down to get the balance within the regulator range and poise the balance wheel. Make sure, after you ground the screws down, that you leave the balance to run a bit too slow; poising the wheel takes also some weight off the screws.

Going forwards & backwards is quite some work, but I ended up with the regulator exactly in the middle and a perfectly poised wheel.

BTW; ever since I did the pocket watch of my great-grandfather, all screw-balances are kept for additional screws ...... I learned my lesson

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Endeavor

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

My problem is finding timing washers for wristwatches

Interesting how your problem is the opposite of mine. If I go to work I might actually have more wristwatch timing washers than I do pocket watch.

Then here's an interesting link to a video review of a book. A very interesting book by the way and I snipped out an image of one of the pages. Just in case you're having a problem finding a timing washer you could always make one.

https://youtu.be/op68gwVvsCo

 

 

[nickelsilver]

11 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Interesting how your problem is the opposite of mine. If I go to work I might actually have more wristwatch timing washers than I do pocket watch.

Then here's an interesting link to a video review of a book. A very interesting book by the way and I snipped out an image of one of the pages. Just in case you're having a problem finding a timing washer you could always make one.

https://youtu.be/op68gwVvsCo

 

 

This is the book for timing work. There are others, with other info, but if you buy one, this is it. In reprint from Antoine Simonin publisher.

[GuyMontag]

29 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

This is the book for timing work. There are others, with other info, but if you buy one, this is it. In reprint from Antoine Simonin publisher.

One came up on ebay just a few days ago. First one I've seen since I got mine about 6 months ago. This site has some good info and examples and is where I came across the book.

Edited February 10, 2023 by GuyMontag

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

Antoine Simonin publisher

I always think of him as a teacher as he was the teacher when I was at wostep.

https://www.booksimonin.ch/home.php

 

[nickelsilver]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

I always think of him as a teacher as he was the teacher when I was at wostep.

https://www.booksimonin.ch/home.php

 

Yeah, he was a very charismatic and knowledgeable guy, and an excellent teacher. Jeez, he's still alive! I should truck over to his shop and chit-chat while that's still the case.

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Jeez, he's still alive! I should truck over to his shop and chit-chat while that's still the case.

Yes that's definitely something you should do as we get older not saying I'm getting older but as we get older you start to regret the things that you didn't do that you can't do anymore because somebody is no longer there to talk to. Then even before you fancy bookstore my understanding was that you can make an appointment to go and visit. Always nice to visit horological book dealers I visited one when I was visiting the UK once picked up a lot of really interesting books. Then that book dealer is out of business when she died I think that was the end of her business. Which tends to be with book dealers at least in horology of that when they go that they take the books with them apparently.