Full cleaning process, thoughts ?

[Mark]

14 minutes ago, Meik said:

Is there a safe length of exposure to IPA to get a good rinse, but avoid the shellac from being compromised?  
Thanks

To be 100%safe don’t put parts with shellac in IPA, but realistically IPA >99% is safe for a moment or two which is all that is needed to disperse the deionised water all allow clean drying. I set a timer for 30 seconds and it works well for me. 

[Meik]

Mark, thanks for the advice.  I will go that route and do my best to avoid using on parts with shellac, or do a really quick dunk before the drying cycle.

[lexacat]

57 minutes ago, Meik said:

This discussion is exactly why I signed up here.  I recently got a Pearl (L&R copy) cleaning machine, but didn’t want to shell out $55+ for the L&R 111 solution.  Not to mention the cash for the L&R 3 rinse solution.  I didn’t know about the shellac concern for the impulse jewel when using IPA, which is what I had planned on using as a final rinse after a bath in distilled water.  Is there a safe length of exposure to IPA to get a good rinse, but avoid the shellac from being compromised?  
Thanks

Generally consensus is it's a bad idea to put pallet fork and balance in IPA as it will likely dissolve the shellac on the pallet stones and the impulse jewel. Personally I use shellite (naptha) as the final rinse when I'm cleaning. 

I've found you can ask 100 watch makers this question and get 147 answers though.

 

I would defer to Mark on this one, that's for sure

Edited January 17, 2023 by lexacat

[Meik]

Thanks Lexacat.  I think I’ll run out and get some naptha to have on hand and try both to see which gives the best cleaning result.  Keeping in mind that they’re both solvents and can minimize the bond if used too long.  I may even invest in the L&R #3, but the price is pretty steep. I really appreciate the information.

[lexacat]

1 hour ago, Meik said:

Thanks Lexacat.  I think I’ll run out and get some naptha to have on hand and try both to see which gives the best cleaning result.  Keeping in mind that they’re both solvents and can minimize the bond if used too long.  I may even invest in the L&R #3, but the price is pretty steep. I really appreciate the information.

The naphtha won't dissolve shellac so you're okay there. 

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, lexacat said:

I've found you can ask 100 watch makers this question and get 147 answers though.

Part of the reason for that is everybody has a different experience. I'll have to remember to check the machine at work to see how long it spends in the isopropyl alcohol. But the last rinse is isopropyl alcohol recommended by the manufacture. I think you'll find that some alcohols will dissolve the shellac faster than others and isopropyl isn't super fast. Because as far as I know we've never had a problem with the isopropyl alcohol. 

 

[Meik]

Just out of curiosity, if by chance I run into the issue in the future where the shellac does accidentally get dissolved, is it extremely difficult to repair it?  

[mikepilk]

13 hours ago, lexacat said:

 Personally I use shellite (naptha) as the final rinse when I'm cleaning. 

I'm not sure what shellite is, but pure naphtha leaves an oily residue - Which is why it is recommended to do a final (quick, 30s) rinse in IPA. As Mark and JohnR725 mention above, it's what the pro's do.

[grsnovi]

6 hours ago, Meik said:

if by chance I run into the issue in the future where the shellac does accidentally get dissolved, is it extremely difficult to repair it?

Difficult? Not really. A PITA? Yes.

Most likely places would be the pallet stones, the impulse jewel and possibly the hairspring.

In the end, you need to decide what your skill level is and if you feel confident undertaking that level of repair at your skill level.

I managed to dissolve the glue that secured the hairspring to the balance on a new ST36 movement and (to me, at the time) it was easier to write off the damaged one and simply buy another movement.

I have since moved to using Elma's wash and rinse solutions.

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, Meik said:

Just out of curiosity, if by chance I run into the issue in the future where the shellac does accidentally get dissolved, is it extremely difficult to repair it?

Were currently in the discussion about cleaning products. It would be much better if you started a new discussion on how to replace shellac if it goes missing or something in the appropriate section would be easier to find for others. Because even if you use the correct fluids shellac with time can still go bad and needs to be replaced. Then there's the Chinese glue that doesn't like anything especially if you claim the watch several times. Plus creative people before you that use something that wasn't shellac. So it be good to start a new discussion in the appropriate section on shellac and how to put it back.

By the way if you catch it early that you have a problem you can dissolves shellac In the appropriate alcohol and basically make up paint and just touch up that works quite nicely.

[lexacat]

4 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I'm not sure what shellite is, but pure naphtha leaves an oily residue - Which is why it is recommended to do a final (quick, 30s) rinse in IPA. As Mark and JohnR725 mention above, it's what the pro's do.

I don't know if it's exactly the same as naphtha. It's a hydrocarbon solvent the dries quickly and (according to the manufacturer) leaves no residue. I still do the final rinse in IPA for everything except pallet fork and balance.

[mikepilk]

3 minutes ago, lexacat said:

I don't know if it's exactly the same as naphtha. It's a hydrocarbon solvent the dries quickly and (according to the manufacturer) leaves no residue. I still do the final rinse in IPA for everything except pallet fork and balance.

Why not pallet fork and balance - they're the parts that most need it !

[lexacat]

15 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Why not pallet fork and balance - they're the parts that most need it !

Up until now everything I'd read said don't put those parts near IPA due to the shellac. I'm just a goon working on cheap garbage watches for fun, I don't really have the ability to re-set pallet stones if I screw up.

I'm gonna try a very, very quick dip in IPA for this 6309a I'm working on next, but so far I'll say there haven't been any issues that I can see with the shellite. It seems especially good for cleaning up balance jewels, I've not seen any residue left behind. But again, complete amateur.

Edited January 17, 2023 by lexacat

[gbyleveldt]

Eeeyyy, I know I shouldn't comment because this one has been debated to death already. Let me rather leave you with a video from someone who has done empirical testing:

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by gbyleveldt

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, gbyleveldt said:

Eeeyyy, I know I shouldn't comment because this one has been debated to death already. Let me rather leave you with a video from someone who has done mpirical testing:

 

Interesting video, it starts well, but  couple of points - I can't tell which model his Ultrasonic is, but it's either 300W or 400W. That's a lot of power to be using on such small parts. No wonder he shakes the pallet stones out. Then he says you must buy new pallets - what about a bit of shellac to fix the jewels?

He suggests that you should not be using any cleaning machine for these parts. I can't believe people servicing watches for a living clean all these parts by hand ( @JohnR725 says he is using a machine).

Of the new professional cleaning machines - the Elma Solvex VA (all £13K of it!) uses a 50W ultrasonic, and the Greiner ACS900 has a 60W.  My ultrasonic is 60W.  I too did tests on new and aged shellac, and found even a few minutes in IPA (in my ultrasonic) did not dissolve (aged) shellac.

If the makers of professional cleaning machines suggest a final (short) rinse in IPA, that's good enough for me. As Marks suggests above, 30s seems reasonable.

The people who would first notice a problem with IPA damaging parts would be the pro watchmakers doing it everyday for a living. If the machines were causing damage, people would stop using them, or the manufacturers would change recommendation on using IPA. 

[JohnR725]

48 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Interesting video, it starts well, but  couple of points - I can't tell which model his Ultrasonic is, but it's either 300W or 400W. That's a lot of power to be using on such small parts. No wonder he shakes the pallet stones out. Then he says you must buy new pallets - what about a bit of shellac to fix the jewels

To be honest I didn't watch the video it until I saw your comments so I watch the video. It appears to be were doing it all wrong at work. I still have to check the programming to see how long it stays in the isopropyl alcohol and whether it's using ultrasonic or not.

Then yes they did find a remark about the pallet fork if the shellac is gone it must be thrown away I must've been asleep in school when they taught that one. Even if you didn't have a holder to hold the fork even if you didn't do a DIY like people in this group have done. You could still mix up shellac in the right alcohol that dissolves quite easily and just painted on the replace whatever's missing. If you didn't feel like warming it up and melting it.

 

51 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I can't believe people servicing watches for a living clean all these parts by hand ( @JohnR725 says he is using a machine).

Yes everything goes in the machine except if I'm servicing a vintage quartz watch that has plastic I have an aversion to that so typically I will clean plastic stuff in the machine if I can help it. But otherwise everything goes in the machine well okay I don't put the mainspring in. But I've seen someone else the shop run the wristwatch spring through the machine which are not really supposed to do don't ask why are just saw the recommendation somewhere for the mainspring. But otherwise balance wheel pallet fork everything goes through the machine. Ideally the balance wheel should be all by itself just to avoid issues. Sometimes I'll put the pallet fork in with it sometimes the pallet fork decides to get tangled in the hairspring but it usually isn't an issue so I try to remember to keep the balance separate. But otherwise everything goes to the machine and yes the machine has ultrasonic.

57 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Of the new professional cleaning machines - the Elma Solvex VA (all £13K of it!) uses a 50W ultrasonic, and the Greiner ACS900 has a 60W.  My ultrasonic is 60W.  I too did tests on new and aged shellac, and found even a few minutes in IPA (in my ultrasonic) did not dissolve (aged) shellac.

Here's another company making cleaning machines notice the word ultrasonic on both of them.

http://lititzpp.com/freedom.php

http://lititzpp.com/matador.php

[JohnR725]

On 1/18/2023 at 1:55 AM, mikepilk said:

He suggests that you should not be using any cleaning machine for these parts. I can't believe people servicing watches for a living clean all these parts by hand ( @JohnR725 says he is using a machine).

Thinking of ultrasonics I found the link they make cleaning machines and they have ultrasonics. Then there's the video below and he actually says professional watchmaker's clean watches with ultrasonic. Strangely enough is the same machine that we haven't work he's grossly underestimated the price and he's confused why people use it

then if anyone sees anything interesting the video let me know I just can't watch this video. I tried jumping ahead to a few points to see if there is anything interesting and right now have overwhelming desire to give the video thumbs down so not going to watch it.

Oh and a caution he is talking about somewhere in here and elevating the temperature the cleaning fluid whatever he's using. Do not do that with professional cleaning fluids always follow their instructions which is room temperature. But as he's not using professional products I guess it's okay.

http://lititzpp.com/

 

 

[mikepilk]

I only watched the first 5 mins. He says that pro's use these machines, as generally they will be working on newer and better quality movements. He gives a warning about checking the condition of the shellac on older movements before machine cleaning. Which is fare enough

56 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Oh and a caution he is talking about somewhere in here and elevating the temperature the cleaning fluid whatever he's using. Do not do that with professional cleaning fluids always follow their instructions which is room temperature. But as he's not using professional products I guess it's okay.

I didn't know that, I assumed the machines heated the fluids. I set my ultrasonic to 40-50C (I'm not worried about fire, as I keep a loose lid fitted to the jars). But if I don't need to heat it, it will smell less!  The user guide for Elma WF Pro does say this :

 

[JohnR725]

13 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I assumed the machines heated the fluids.

You're right it does say that and yes I checked for myself. But I do know I've seen some cleaning products at said room temperature. Because elevating the temperature speeds up the cleaning cycle in a long cleaning cycle at elevated temperatures can be bad. Then I checked what Omega was recommending for this fluid they said room temperature.

[mikepilk]

On 1/18/2023 at 11:07 AM, JohnR725 said:

Yes everything goes in the machine except if I'm servicing a vintage quartz watch that has plastic I have an aversion to that so typically I will clean plastic stuff in the machine if I can help it. But otherwise everything goes in the machine well okay I don't put the mainspring in. But I've seen someone else the shop run the wristwatch spring through the machine which are not really supposed to do don't ask why are just saw the recommendation somewhere for the mainspring. But otherwise balance wheel pallet fork everything goes through the machine. Ideally the balance wheel should be all by itself just to avoid issues. Sometimes I'll put the pallet fork in with it sometimes the pallet fork decides to get tangled in the hairspring but it usually isn't an issue so I try to remember to keep the balance separate. But otherwise everything goes to the machine and yes the machine has ultrasonic.

How do you clean the balance jewels? What is the recommended practice - if there is one ?

In Mark's videos they are left in for the machine, but I worry about the pivots getting a good clean. I remove them before the mainplate/balance get cleaned, and clean them separately in the ultrasonic using a contact lens case to keep them apart. 

 

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, mikepilk said:

How do you clean the balance jewels? What is the recommended practice - if there is one ?

Like everything else in watch repair it depends upon who you ask and you didn't specify something.

With antique watches that have the balance jewels held in with screws. Traditionally people take the two screws out push both of the jewels out. Then depending upon how aggressive you want to be would probably take some sort of wood and attempt to clean out the pivot holes and scrape off the end stone and then clean it with whatever favorite method they have. But the screws tend to get stripped with time it's a lot nicer if you don't clean them at all. But don't tend to have lubrication and there that needs to be cleaned out. This is where it work with the machine that has a vacuum and two frequencies of ultrasonics I've never had one that didn't get cleaned out except one time where there was a piece of metal under there and that I had the disassembled and remove that but otherwise with the vacuum the fluids get everywhere and everything does a nice job.

Then on modern wristwatches typically what you can do is remove the jewel assembly because it's held it with a spring in some form. If it's a hinged type spring you just put the spring back in place so it doesn't get broken or fall off and cleaning. Remove the entire assembly for the jewel put the balance wheel back in the watch. With the shock protected system put the balance wheel will be protected even without the jewels in the pivots will not touch anything. This is a definite requirement with the etachron system as you really don't have to disassemble the balance wheel from the balance bridge. This means when the balance is back with the balance bridge on top screwed to the main plate it's protected the pivots are protected and the jewels can be cleaned independent of that. I usually put the upper jewel assembly in the basket with the upper components of the watch the lower jewel assembly goes in the dial side components and it usually comes apart and cleaning and everything ends up nice and clean.

Then the only time you leave everything together and run it to the cleaning machine is if you're doing a pre-clean cycle. Usually shops will have a separate preclean machine with a shorter cycle movement comes out hands and dial come off anything that might beat room did a cleaning fluid comes off like calendar components. Then the entire watch assembled it goes through the cleaning machine for a short cycle so it's nice and clean for the watchmaker to now fix all the problems examine everything or free like Rolex to spend a lot of time checking of the end and whatever shake of wheels and it's a lot easier to do if everything is clean. But I do know of some watchmakers object to pre-cleaning because they think it obliterates the scene of the crime. In other words if you have something that's worn and maybe has metal filings you do a precleaning you can't see that at all everything is shiny and nice in your unaware of problems.