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Hello 👋

I was reading about cleaning and so on and i've gathered some information about it so i've decided to do one that i have all the resources for however this isn't something i've heard someone do so this is why i'm asking for thoughts 

1: I disassemble the watch and put all the parts into a jar

2: The jar contains Zippo lighter fluid 

3: I put the jar into an ultrasonic cleaner (sealed)

4: I take it out and leave it to dry

No rinse, this is my question do I need a rinse if so what do i use thats affordable and is it ok to put things like the balance in Zippo Lighter fluid basically if you can think of some flaws or help me I'd be very grateful😄

Thanks !

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5 hours ago, TadasJ said:

Hello 👋

I was reading about cleaning and so on and i've gathered some information about it so i've decided to do one that i have all the resources for however this isn't something i've heard someone do so this is why i'm asking for thoughts 

1: I disassemble the watch and put all the parts into a jar

2: The jar contains Zippo lighter fluid 

3: I put the jar into an ultrasonic cleaner (sealed)

4: I take it out and leave it to dry

No rinse, this is my question do I need a rinse if so what do i use thats affordable and is it ok to put things like the balance in Zippo Lighter fluid basically if you can think of some flaws or help me I'd be very grateful😄

Thanks !

Hello matey.  Have you read the recent discussions on cleaning with lighter fluid. Might be worth a post up of the zippo ingredients label . Ipa provides a fair rinse but be mindful of the rinse time with the balance wheel and pallet fork. 

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Hello, 

Yes thank you Ive read the whole discussion I wanted to reply saying thank you but I haven’t figured out how to reply but I think I’m doing it correctly, I don’t know 😅 just was thinking doesn’t ipa dissolve shellac ?

 

Zippo:

It’s in danish as I live in Denmark but it says :Distillates Petroleum, light distilled hydrogen process, low boiling point, light, hydrogen process

something in the lines of that (not the best at danish)

image.jpg

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15 minutes ago, TadasJ said:

Hello, 

Yes thank you Ive read the whole discussion I wanted to reply saying thank you but I haven’t figured out how to reply but I think I’m doing it correctly, I don’t know 😅 just was thinking doesn’t ipa dissolve shellac ?

 

Zippo:

It’s in danish as I live in Denmark but it says :Distillates Petroleum, light distilled hydrogen process, low boiling point, light, hydrogen process

something in the lines of that (not the best at danish)

image.jpg

You are replying ok Tadas. This looks ok as far as lighter fluid goes if your translation is correct. Distillates petroleum, so naptha. Light and low boiling point will mean a light naptha this would evaporate more quickly than a heavy naptha which is an advantage from a parts drying aspect. If using in jars in an ultrasonic just ba aware of the low boiling and flash point, so do not use a heater if it has one. Ultra sonics can heat up without a heater so also keep an eye on the temperature of the water in the tank. Yes ipa can dissolve shellac also any other jewel adhesive will. So if you are going to rinse after the lighter fluid clean,  do so quickly with the balance assembly and pallet fork and dry them quickly on watchpaper and with a puffer. I would advise doing them separately in a shallow jar so you can get them in rinsed and out and dried quickly and efficiently then there is less risk to the shellac. If the amount of shellac adhesive used is small and less aged then obviously the risk is higher The other watchparts will be ok in the ipa for any reasonable length of time.  👍

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17 hours ago, TadasJ said:

Hello 👋

I was reading about cleaning and so on and i've gathered some information about it so i've decided to do one that i have all the resources for however this isn't something i've heard someone do so this is why i'm asking for thoughts 

1: I disassemble the watch and put all the parts into a jar

2: The jar contains Zippo lighter fluid 

3: I put the jar into an ultrasonic cleaner (sealed)

4: I take it out and leave it to dry

No rinse, this is my question do I need a rinse if so what do i use thats affordable and is it ok to put things like the balance in Zippo Lighter fluid basically if you can think of some flaws or help me I'd be very grateful😄

Thanks !

Follow the good advice from @Neverenoughwatches !  My comments :

I find it easier to disassemble the watch and put component assemblies together in tray compartments - e.g.  gear train and bridge, keyless work,  barrel bridge + arbor,  crown wheel etc. Then I clean each assembly at a time in a small beaker floating in the water of the ultrasonic. That way you don't need much cleaning solution.

I wouldn't seal the jar - pressure could build. Just work in a well ventilated area (with no sources of ignition!). There's no problem using the heater (I set mine to 40C). You can see the vapour boiling off but it can't ignite without an ignition source (and you could just put something over the top of the jar if it did)

I would recommend pegging all the jewel holes first.

Depending on the ultrasonic, 3-5 mins in the cleaner should do.

Leave to dry, or blow dry - doesn't need to be totally dry.

As @Neverenoughwatches suggests, you really need an IPA rinse as lighter fluid leaves an oily residue.

I don't know if dipping is enough, but when I used IPA rinse, I did as the cleaning - components in an open beaker in the US for a couple of minutes. EXCEPT parts with shellac, i.e. pallet fork and balance wheel, where I did 30s - 1m. As long as the shellac is old, you will have no problems with dissolving.

To clean the balance - as is common,  I have the balance fitted to the bare baseplate. I remove the balance jewels, though some leave them in place. It's the safest way to clean the balance.

 

Edited by mikepilk
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3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Follow the good advice from @Neverenoughwatches !  My comments :

I find it easier to disassemble the watch and put component assemblies together in tray compartments - e.g.  gear train and bridge, keyless work,  barrel bridge + arbor,  crown wheel etc. Then I clean each assembly at a time in a small beaker floating in the water of the ultrasonic. That way you don't need much cleaning solution.

I wouldn't seal the jar - pressure could build. Just work in a well ventilated area (with no sources of ignition!). There's no problem using the heater (I set mine to 40C). You can see the vapour boiling off but it can't ignite without an ignition source (and you could just put something over the top of the jar if it did)

I would recommend pegging all the jewel holes first.

Depending on the ultrasonic, 3-5 mins in the cleaner should do.

Leave to dry, or blow dry - doesn't need to be totally dry.

As @Neverenoughwatches suggests, you really need an IPA rinse as lighter fluid leaves an oily residue.

I don't know if dipping is enough, but when I used IPA rinse, I did as the cleaning - components in an open beaker in the US for a couple of minutes. EXCEPT parts with shellac, i.e. pallet fork and balance wheel, where I did 30s - 1m. As long as the shellac is old, you will have no problems with dissolving.

To clean the balance - as is common,  I have the balance fitted to the bare baseplate. I remove the balance jewels, though some leave them in place. It's the safest way to clean the balance.

 

Some worthwhile additional procedure advice tadas from Mike 

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  • 4 months later...

Thanks for the information above. I am pretty new to the watch hobby and would like some advice on my cleaning method. Just to place this in context, I live in a part of the world where it is impossible to get dedicated watch cleaning fluids, hence a watch cleaning machine would just be an expensive ornament... (unless anyone can suggest alternative fluids I could use in it that are easily obtainable?). Therefore, I am restricted to an ultrasonic cleaner, my cleaning process is as follows:

  1. Disassemble all parts
  2. Peg jewels and remove any obvious debris
  3. Place into small mesh baskets (replace balance onto main plate)
  4. Place all components/baskets in a jar with water and dish detergent and then inside the ultrasonic cleaner for 20 mins at 40 degrees C
  5. Take everything out of the jar
  6. Separate out the balance and pallet fork (due to shellac) and dry in a warm place
  7. Immediately dip all other baskets/parts in a 99.9% IPA let them sit in the jar for 5-10 mins (the time it takes to make/drink a cup of coffee) to remove water (?)
  8. Take everything out of the IPA jar and allow to air dry
  9. Place everything into naptha jar (Klean Strip VM & P Naptha) and then inside the ultrasonic cleaner for 20 mins at 40 degrees C
  10. Take everything out of the naptha jar and allow to air dry
  11. Place everything into IPA jar and then inside the ultrasonic cleaner for 20 mins at 40 degrees C
  12. Take everything out of the IPA jar and allow to air dry
  13. Re-assemble watch

Can anyone see any steps that are wrong/missing/redundant in the above? I've had a few issues with the hairspring where the hairspring seems to not be cleaned enough, so have tried sitting in a small jar of naptha (no ultrasonic) for about half an hour or maybe more with little improvement. I've also had a few instances where the jewels in the pallet fork have twisted up on re-assemble, maybe the process above is weakening the shellac, or maybe I'm just unlucky? 

Edited by Waggy
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4 hours ago, Waggy said:

Thanks for the information - could you share how do you clean your balance?

I follow the guidelines in one of the old books- either De Carle or Fried from memory- I carefully clean the balance pivots, roller table and impulse jewel in soft pith wood.
 

Then, a very brief rinse in IPA but being mindful of the shellac securing the impulse jewel, as alcohol will dissolve it in left in for any length of time. I am currently trying to rectify this problem by applying new shellac- not an easy task! If using a water based cleaning solution, I would always play it safe and remove the hairspring from the balance. 

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9 minutes ago, Bill241 said:

I follow the guidelines in one of the old books- either De Carle or Fried from memory- I carefully clean the balance pivots, roller table and impulse jewel in soft pith wood.
 

Then, a very brief rinse in IPA but being mindful of the shellac securing the impulse jewel, as alcohol will dissolve it in left in for any length of time. I am currently trying to rectify this problem by applying new shellac- not an easy task! If using a water based cleaning solution, I would always play it safe and remove the hairspring from the balance. 

I never remove  a hairspring unless I have to, especially for cleaning. You run the risk of damage (or collet breaking) every time you remove it.

For shock protected balances, I leave the balance cock+balance mounted on the mainplate, and remove the shock jewels. Then in the ultrasonic for cleaning.

If it's not shock protected, you have to remove the balance anyway to clean the jewels. So I put the balance (with hairspring still on!) in a very small glass container (so it can't dance around too much) in to the ultrasonic.

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8 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Lighter fluid is not friendly to shellac in unltrasonic.

I have lost several balance pivots in Ultrasonic, seems to depemd on metal pivot is made of.

Rgds

About time did a good video on this. He actually recommended against an ultrasonic machine use on shellaced parts. With good experimentation.

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1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

About time did a good video on this. He actually recommended against an ultrasonic machine use on shellaced parts. With good experimentation.

If the balance is mounted and jewels removed for cleaning, the pivots are protected and can come to no harm due to impact damage.  

Lighter fluid (naphtha) is not a solvent for shellac. That's not the cause of the problem. I too did an experiment with shellac in an ultrasonic, and found that as long as the shellac is 'aged', there is no significant damage using small ultrasonic cleaners for a few minutes. (I clean 3-5mins, rinse 1-3 mins) 

L&R and Elma cleaning fluids are advertised as 'ultrasonic' cleaners. The user guides make no mention of not using it for shellaced parts. I always clean the balance and forks in the ultrasonic.

The key question is, how powerful is the ultrasonic?  You use a hammer to fit a balance staff, but not a sledgehammer.

If you use a big powerful, industrial ultrasonic you can cause all sorts of damage - removing shellac, pitting surfaces etc.

I use a small 60W ultrasonic and have seen no damage or loss of shellac.

I know that the "proper" cleaning machines are preferable to ultrasonics. But as I'm only a home hobbyist with limited space, they do the job.  

 

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16 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I never remove  a hairspring unless I have to, especially for cleaning. You run the risk of damage (or collet breaking) every time you remove it.

For shock protected balances, I leave the balance cock+balance mounted on the mainplate, and remove the shock jewels. Then in the ultrasonic for cleaning.

If it's not shock protected, you have to remove the balance anyway to clean the jewels. So I put the balance (with hairspring still on!) in a very small glass container (so it can't dance around too much) in to the ultrasonic.

Which fluid do you use for the cleaning?

13 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

About time did a good video on this. He actually recommended against an ultrasonic machine use on shellaced parts. With good experimentation.

Is this the video?

 

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On 8/26/2022 at 9:43 AM, TadasJ said:

3: I put the jar into an ultrasonic cleaner (sealed)

On 8/27/2022 at 2:47 AM, mikepilk said:

I wouldn't seal the jar - pressure could build.

One of the minor problems with ultrasonic is typically the fluid will warm up when it's running. It warms up and you of a sealed jar you might end up with exploding jar or a broken jar because it cracks under pressure. Usually lighter fluid and other fluids tend to have a really low evaporation and it's best not the sealed jar.

18 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I know that the "proper" cleaning machines are preferable to ultrasonics

Are you suggesting proper cleaning machines do not have ultrasonic?

18 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I use a small 60W ultrasonic and have seen no damage or loss of shellac.

I've worked in the shops that use a small ultrasonic take with the beaker and the cleaning fluid. Then the current machine where I work has all sorts of ultrasonic energy in varying frequencies. Complete with the final rinse of isopropyl alcohol and we have no problem with the shellac. But vintage watches you always have to be careful because sometimes it might not be shellac somebody may have gotten creative with glue or the shellac is just really old and bad so on a vintage always want to check your jewels and look  at the shellac to make sure it still good. And yes at home I use an ultrasonic tank used for years and never had a problem other than finally wearing out the tiny tank and having to move to a bigger machine still never had a problem.

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3 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Are you suggesting proper cleaning machines do not have ultrasonic?

I know very little about these machines. I didn't know they use ultrasonic.

5 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Complete with the final rinse of isopropyl alcohol and we have no problem with the shellac. 

Do you always do a final rinse with IPA? Is this only because the rinse becomes contaminated ?

I use a small amount of new solution (Elma) each time - cleaner and rinse. Is it worth a quick dip in IPA after the rinse?

Even though I usually peg all jewels, after a clean and rinse in the ultrasonic, there is often a film around the holes - which surprises me. I wonder if it's a residue of epilame used in factory? I wipe it away with IPA.

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FWIW, I use a vintage L&R spinning machine and use L&R cleaning and rinsing solutions.  While the L&R is designed for two rinse cycles, I do a third.  I watched the video above and see that he recommends three rinse cycles.  After drying in the L&R drying chimney, I am done.

I rarely do a pre clean, but I think it is a good idea--maybe I will start doing that.

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1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

Do you always do a final rinse with IPA? Is this only because the rinse becomes contaminated ?

For home cleaning I was discovering that the l&r rinse never seem to dry the parts would always be wet little bit even though I was blowing hot air across the parts. So one of my friends recommended alcohol. This is the alcohol that dissolves shellac but I don't care because I'm only in it long enough to remove the final rinse and leave something that dries really fast. Strangely enough the machine At work has the exact same problem so that's why we use alcohol in this case isopropyl alcohol as recommended by the manufacturer.

2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I know very little about these machines. I didn't know they use ultrasonic.

Yes I know there's a persistent rumor that ultrasonic is evil and bad but nobody told professional watchmakers that nor did anyone ever tell the companies that make the machines. So for instance here's a video of a very interesting machine.

So when you look at the video you'll see that it does use ultrasonic two separate frequencies and basically everything in this machine is programmable. It's also an interesting machine when it's running because it kinda sounds like Darth Vader As it's using the vacuum to move the fluids around. Otherwise for the most part the machine is relatively quiet and it's a nice conversation piece with customers come into the store.

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Waggy said:

Which fluid do you use for the cleaning?

Is this the video?

 

No it was more specific to cleaning of parts that have shellac.

8 hours ago, Waggy said:

Which fluid do you use for the cleaning?

Is this the video?

 

https://youtu.be/x_6TulURYII

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
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I've found the whole "cheap ultrasonic at home easy peasy cleaning" conversation to be fairly divise and from all the research I've done I've only gotten more and more confused, haha.

All I know is this seems to work for me using four easily obtainable ingredients; dish soap, distilled water, shellite (naptha, lighter fluid), and IPA (isopropyl alcohol).

  1. Pre-clean the heck out of your parts. Pegwood, soft brush or cotton bud and distilled water or IPA on stubborn gunk. Forget about rust, you can barely remove it let alone reverse it on parts this small. If you don't like the look of a rusty part replace it if you can or take a crack a the whole coke soak thing. If you want your parts to come out with no rust staining or marks you need to remember that you're using a cheap ultrasonic and off the shelf chemicals. Adjust your expectations accordingly. Pro Tip: no IPA near the pallet fork or balance.
  2. Warm water 60-70C and dish soap in the ultrasonic for all parts. In baskets in the tank, or baskets in jars, however you like. Like, 5 minutes tops. This is a mild degrease and clean.
  3. All parts in a warm distilled (or better yet demineralised) water in the ultrasonic. In jars or in the tank, either way. 5 minutes tops. This is an initial rinse to remove crap from the degrease/clean and remove the dish soap. Otherwise you'll risk making an emulsion from the chemical cleaners in the next step.
  4. Soak the balance and pallet fork in shellite/naptha/lighter fluid. I have shellite, so that's what I use. Don't put this in the ultrasonic, just a sealed jar or two. The point here is to displace the water and prevent rusting, and the shellite/naptha/lighter fluid will act to disintegrate any stubborn oils and grease. It doesn't need cavitation to do this, you can give it a swirl for light agitation if you feel like it. Keep a lid on it, awful stuff. Again, only needs to be a couple of minutes.
  5. Soak everything except the pallet fork and balance in IPA. Same reasons as above, only it's cheaper and less nasty than shellite. Get as close to 99% pure IPA as you can get so it dries off cleaner. If you're worried about any other jewels or parts unglueing in the IPA, you can leave them out. I'm not your dad, do what you feel like.
  6. I then like to quickly air dry those parts, then dunk them in shellite for good luck, then pull them out of there and air dry them. Because I feel like the shellite has less residue than IPA, but eh, I dunno, this is backyard science. Probably just the IPA is fine. 
  7. Remove everything from everywhere and let it air dry for a second. Turn it all upside down and inside out to remove any and all moisture. You've either pulled it out of IPA or shellite, naptha, whatever, that stuff dries quick but not if there's a lake of it.
  8. Put some baking paper in a tray, sprinkle your parts in gently, and put in a fan forced oven on like 50C with the door open for 10-15 minutes or until golden brown. Or put into a food dehydrator if you have one, those apparently work great too.
  9. Do a final inspection with at least a loupe and reclean any parts that need it.

If your ultrasonic cleaner lasts longer than 4 hours, consult your doctor.

 

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1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

I couldn't  find all its ingrediants locally.

It's why other than if you are clockmaker they a lot of times will make their solutions because that's been published quite a bit. Typically in watch repair it's easier to just buy a solution. Then typically a lot of watchmakers have an aversion to water-based cleaners because we don't like rust.

8 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

While the L&R is designed for two rinse cycles, I do a third.  I watched the video above and see that he recommends three rinse cycles.

Cleaning is a interesting process it's not really cleaning and then rinsing the whole process is cleaning. This is where to start shortchanging on the rinse for instance you're not doing a proper cleaning job. I snipped out an image on what Omega currently recommends.

Omega cleaning procedure and chemicals.JPG

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This discussion is exactly why I signed up here.  I recently got a Pearl (L&R copy) cleaning machine, but didn’t want to shell out $55+ for the L&R 111 solution.  Not to mention the cash for the L&R 3 rinse solution.  I didn’t know about the shellac concern for the impulse jewel when using IPA, which is what I had planned on using as a final rinse after a bath in distilled water.  Is there a safe length of exposure to IPA to get a good rinse, but avoid the shellac from being compromised?  
Thanks

Edited by Meik
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