Best practice to safely handle balance assembly

[jdm]

[NOTE: I have received this question  in PM, but since this is a forum it should belong where everyone can see and discuss it. It has, of course, also been asked and discussed numerous other times in the past]

 I'm about to attempt my first disassembly of a non running movement that probably doesn't have any serious problems and I have been watching videos of how others do it and I wanted to get a little clarification of best practice to safely remove the balance assembly without destroying the hairspring as i see people's behavior once they remove the balance cock to be all over the place. What I do know is you
1. Lift up the balance cock slightly to disengage it from the support posts.

2. rotate the cock slightly and then rotate it back to disengage the roller jewel from the pallet fork.

3. Store it upside down with balance wheel on top and balance staff slotted in the jewel bearing where it would normally go.

Correct me if I'm wrong but is what this guy did in this youtube video probably going to destroy a hairspring? I timestamped the video.

I see this site's owner Mark remove them and he grabs it by the cock and wheel sandwiched together with his tweezers with the tweezers often looking they're either touching or dangerously close to the hairspring then he flips the thing over while he has the two sandwiched together. Sometimes he removes it and lets the balance wheel hang free and just moves it off screen at which tim'e i'm assuming he flips it over by sandwiching the cock and wheel together. 

What is generally best practice?

[anilv]

Personally I will grip the balance and cock as a unit, rather than letting the balance dangle. One some ladies watches I let the balance dangle just because I dont want to stress the tiny pivots in the (usually) non-shock setting.

Having said that, the dangling balance seems to be an accepted method of handling these things and there doesn't seem to be much harm. In the video posted above, it does look a bit rough but it could be an experienced watchmaker doing things a bit faster than a hobbyist because he is comfortable with what he is doing.

Rgds

Anilv

[Kalanag]

Modern (white) hair springs with screwless balance wheels should easily withstand the hanging. Old blue hair springs with heavy screw type balance wheels might not.

I never grab the cock and the wheel as a sandwich. Nevertheless it might be done safely when an antishock jewel setting is present.

[Neverenoughwatches]

53 minutes ago, anilv said:

In the video posted above, it does look a bit rough but it could be an experienced watchmaker doing things a bit faster than a hobbyist because he is comfortable with what he is doing.

Rgds

Agree with anilv here. Marshall is a good experienced amateur, I've seen him do a lot of things that i considered to be quite rough handling. But it does come down to experience and knowing the treatment that a watch part can actually take. When i started i was very cautious and tentertive with handling and tbh that can lead to accidental damage. Now much further in i handle things very differently with confidence and to a point like Marshall flip and throw parts around a little lol. Nothing ever breaks, you just get a feel and a knowhow for what will and wont be ok. For example the hairspring probably the most delicate part of the watch the part that most beginners damage first. With experience you will start to appreciate that that delicate part will actually bend, pull, and stretch in many directions without damage if handled correctly. I recently watched a video showing the great Fried manipulate and untangle a hairspring, it was quite mesmerising and frightening at the same time

11 minutes ago, Kalanag said:

Modern (white) hair springs with screwless balance wheels should easily withstand the hanging. Old blue hair springs with heavy screw type balance wheels might not.

I never grab the cock and the wheel as a sandwich. Nevertheless it might be done safely when an antishock jewel setting is present.

Definitely agree with Kalanag here. I'm not keen on the dangling aspect but i know a modern hairspring should be ok but an old one can break and has done with me more than once by hanging. If the spring is overstretching from the weight of the balance wheel then back off on that idea of hanging. I also dont grab the cock and balance wheel together, its very convenient way to handle. But if somehow the pivot is not kept straight, if the balance wheel is gripped and pressed from one side only the pivot could potentially bend. If the pivot ends up out of the jewel hole before holding then potential damage, if the tweezers are over gripped then this is more pressure than the pivot and jewel hole are normally subjected to then potential damage. Personally i wouldnt recommend that handling method to a beginner, no offence but a beginner's touch can be too heavy handed. And thats coming from a once beginner that was a bit heavy handed. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, anilv said:

Having said that, the dangling balance seems to be an accepted method of handling these things and there doesn't seem to be much harm.

Unfortunately removing balance wheels there are a lot of variables that can change the outcome from good to bad. The biggest influences going to be the hairspring as to whether it's soft or stiff. Soft hairsprings definitely do not like to be stretched at all their very unforgiving for that.

If you look at the video notice when he removes the balance bridge with hairspring it barely stretches at all. The video makes it looks so simple and easy. But there will be balance bridge is where you lift them up and you're getting a lot of stretching of the hairspring which is not good. Then even if they hairspring is stiff you still want to be careful not to yank the bridge off if the balance wheel is staying in place.

1 hour ago, Kalanag said:

Old blue hair springs with heavy screw type balance wheels might not.

I wonder how much size influences this? In other words it doesn't seem to be an issue with American pocket watch balance wheels their hairspring's tend to be quite strong.

Another caution with balance wheel removal. In his video ask he makes all of this look to simple by the way. When he takes the screw off the balance bridge it's just sitting there what has been pride up. This is where you want to be really careful that the balance bridge doesn't fall usually it falls and leaves the balance behind and hairspring gets very unhappy. The same thing can happen when you're inserting the balance wheel and bridge just be very mindful that the bridge does not fall off. Oftentimes it's helpful to put the screw in With just like half a turn so it's holding a bridge so it doesn't do anything undesirable.

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

This is where you want to be really careful that the balance bridge doesn't fall usually it falls and leaves the balance behind and hairspring gets very unhappy. 

This has happened to me as I'm sure it has with many beginners and experienced alike,i was lucky and got away with the mishap. I also now use a different type of movement holder that isn't actually a movement holder but works extremely well after a little adaptation. It enables me to put a sponge support underneath and very close to the balance assembly so that if there is a balance cock fall it doesn't travel far enough to do any damage. I've bought quite a few holders in the past some really good vintage ones and even a very nice Rolex holder but i nearly always use this cheap one that i adapted. 

[mikepilk]

"This is where you want to be really careful that the balance bridge doesn't fall usually it falls and leaves the balance behind and hairspring gets very unhappy. "

Yep, we've all been there, where the cock drops over the side of the movement but with the balance still in place 

Until I became more proficient, I did what @Neverenoughwatches suggests - cut some foam to sit around the movement holder up to movement height, so that you can't drop the balance cock over the side. 

I do a similar thing on the balance tack for "old blue" hairsprings - stick it through some foam so the spring can't be over-stretched.

The point made by @Kalanag about the different types of hairspring material is important. Modern "white" springs are much more robust - I'll just let them dangle. But, older blue ones, I  lift the balance and cock together. This morning I've been working on a 1940's watch, and the hairspring is soft as a wet noodle - the slightest touch deforms it.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

"This is where you want to be really careful that the balance bridge doesn't fall usually it falls and leaves the balance behind and hairspring gets very unhappy. "

Yep, we've all been there, where the cock drops over the side of the movement but with the balance still in place 

Until I became more proficient, I did what @Neverenoughwatches suggests - cut some foam to sit around the movement holder up to movement height, so that you can't drop the balance cock over the side. 

I do a similar thing on the balance tack for "old blue" hairsprings - stick it through some foam so the spring can't be over-stretched.

The point made by @Kalanag about the different types of hairspring material is important. Modern "white" springs are much more robust - I'll just let them dangle. But, older blue ones, I  lift the balance and cock together. This morning I've been working on a 1940's watch, and the hairspring is soft as a wet noodle - the slightest touch deforms it.

 

I like the idea of poking the tack through foam mike, great idea. Maybe we should have a section dedicated to foam uses

[anilv]

To add to my earlier post, lifting the balance together with the cock allows you to lift the balance up a bit and then move it sideways. This ensures that the balance does not get snagged on a wheel and is extended too much.

Ditto on installation, it allows for controlled sideways movement rather than dangling.

have a good weekend ahead!

Anilv

 

[Birbdad]

I was the one that sent this pm. I didn't notice he'd made a thread about it. i guess it was thread worthy after all. 

The guy in that video DOES seem to really know his stuff, i watch tons of his videos and the way people talk about balance springs you would think of a gnat lands on them your watch is toast. The handling in the video DID look REALLY rough so I was trying to gauge just what one can get away with.

that said I'm using Mark's vids as my primary reference and he seems to do the dangle or grab the cock and wheel as a unit depending on the video. I did the sandwich it together as a single unit technique  for my first balance spring removal and it went swimmingly.  I definitely took my time but i think i'll try and just let it hang next time.

So if you let it hang, how do you turn it over to properly rest it on the balance cock with the wheel up? that Seems like it would just cause the balance spring to bend to the side in ways it probably shouldn't with no support for the weight of the balance wheel.

I really appreciate all your input and guidance people 

23 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

This has happened to me as I'm sure it has with many beginners and experienced alike,i was lucky and got away with the mishap. I also now use a different type of movement holder that isn't actually a movement holder but works extremely well after a little adaptation. It enables me to put a sponge support underneath and very close to the balance assembly so that if there is a balance cock fall it doesn't travel far enough to do any damage. I've bought quite a few holders in the past some really good vintage ones and even a very nice Rolex holder but i nearly always use this cheap one that i adapted. 

Can i see this sponge setup? Might give me ideas to jury rig something.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Birbdad

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, Birbdad said:

So if you let it hang, how do you turn it over to properly rest it on the balance cock with the wheel up? that Seems like it would just cause the balance spring to bend to the side in ways it probably shouldn't with no support for the weight of the balance wheel.

If you feel comfortable then handling the wheel and cock sandwich then carry on with that way. Everyone is different, what works for you may or maynot work for someone else. I take the balance out usually dangling as long as its not snagging. Place it down then quickly flip it over by lifting the balance wheel. Sometimes using a finger to stop it sliding while flipping. Then place the staff in the top balance jewel like a little spinning top. But honestly Birb you will just find your own way that works for you. When i get home mate tomorrow i will post up my movement holder.

[Birbdad]

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

If you feel comfortable then handling the wheel and cock sandwich then carry on with that way. Everyone is different, what works for you may or maynot work for someone else. I take the balance out usually dangling as long as its not snagging. Place it down then quickly flip it over by lifting the balance wheel. Sometimes using a finger to stop it sliding while flipping. Then place the staff in the top balance jewel like a little spinning top. But honestly Birb you will just find your own way that works for you. When i get home mate tomorrow i will post up my movement holder.

I don't feel comfortable any way yet. What i want to know is best practice and people made a compelling argument that the dangle is safer. I will try that on my snzg03 this weekend.  I wasn't even considering accidental bending the balance staff when i first first did the sandwich method!

Honestly for all i now i destroyed that balance staff and i won't know till i get it back in. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Birbdad

[jdm]

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

people made a compelling argument that the dangle is safer.

It is not, especially for beginners on a Seiko. Their hairsprings are very delicate, and don't tolerate the slightest accident. Anil has explained well above how to "sandwich".

 

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

 bending the balance staff

More exactly, bending the top pivot. The risk is completely eliminated by removing the upper jewel first, as in normal disassembly sequence for servicing. But if you use a light touch, avoiding squeezing, the pivot won't bend even with the jewel in place. That being said, removing the balance is relatively easy, refitting it a bit less, no matter the method being used.

If you could practice first on a scrap mov.t it would be much better.

[Birbdad]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

It is not, especially for beginners on a Seiko. Their hairsprings are very delicate, and don't tolerate the slightest accident. Anil has explained well above how to "sandwich".

 

More exactly, bending the top pivot. The risk is completely eliminated by removing the upper jewel first, as in normal disassembly sequence for servicing. But if you use a light touch, avoiding squeezing, the pivot won't bend even with the jewel in place. That being said, removing the balance is relatively easy, refitting it a bit less, no matter the method being used.

If you could practice first on a scrap mov.t it would be much better.

He described what i'm pretty sure i did but it didn't even occur to me to remove the top jewel. So if the top jewel is removed there's just a very big hole there so nothing to bend the top pivot?

I was VERY gentle, didn't squeeze but it honestly didn't even occur to me to double check that the top pivot remained in the pivot before i did the sandwich. i really hope i didn't bend the top pivot. Once i flipped the thing over it sorta looked like hte balance bounced slightly out of the pivot and i just returned it to it.

I think from here on out i will remove the Top jewel and do the sandwich thing, that feels like it would be safest unless anybody can convince me otherwise.

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, Birbdad said:

He described what i'm pretty sure i did but it didn't even occur to me to remove the top jewel. So if the top jewel is removed there's just a very big hole there so nothing to bend the top pivot?

I was VERY gentle, didn't squeeze but it honestly didn't even occur to me to double check that the top pivot remained in the pivot before i did the sandwich. i really hope i didn't bend the top pivot. Once i flipped the thing over it sorta looked like hte balance bounced slightly out of the pivot and i just returned it to it.

I think from here on out i will remove the Top jewel and do the sandwich thing, that feels like it would be safest unless anybody can convince me otherwise.

This does seem like a good idea birb, its not something i have tried myself, but sounds like a logical safe approach to using that method. Although not possible to remove all balance jewels first.  On many old swiss movements the balance jewels are fastened from underneath so the balance assembly must be removed before that can happen. As i work on mostly swiss this is why i generally hang the balance also replacing the balance this way works much better for me. I understand that you wish to learn best practices, and i do believe in tried and tested ways tips and tricks of the trade. But again I can only repeat it is entirely down to what works for you.  With a 20x or even a 10 x loupe you should be able to see any damage that may have occured to the pivot. As a good habit all parts should be closely inspected during disassembly and also reassembly. This can save you a lot of time when fault finding.

[Birbdad]

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

This does seem like a good idea birb, its not something i have tried myself, but sounds like a logical safe approach to using that method. Although not possible to remove all balance jewels first.  On many old swiss movements the balance jewels are fastened from underneath so the balance assembly must be removed before that can happen. As i work on mostly swiss this is why i generally hang the balance also replacing the balance this way works much better for me. I understand that you wish to learn best practices, and i do believe in tried and tested ways tips and tricks of the trade. But again I can only repeat it is entirely down to what works for you.  With a 20x or even a 10 x loupe you should be able to see any damage that may have occured to the pivot. As a good habit all parts should be closely inspected during disassembly and also reassembly. This can save you a lot of time when fault finding.

Well this is the challenge of learning something new, when you run into a situation where nobody can seem to agree. And the only way i could find out what works best for me is probably by breaking some stuff. I got you telling me one thing, others telling me another so i dunno. When i remove the balance assembly on my snzg03 with the stuck hairspring i'm gonna remove the cap jewel and examine real closely what's actually going on there and make an assessment as best i can.  

Given the fact it is super easy to remove the balance jewel with a little rodico in these movements the sandwich method for a seiko might be safer than it is for some old swiss stuff because i'm pretty sure once that cap jewels is out there isn't really much of anything to put pressure on the top pivot of the balance wheel, ther's just a big hole there..

I do have an old watch of my grandfathers from probably the 70's, some long dead brand called Ariston that has some sort of swiss movement in it.  It's running insanely well (got professionally serviced about 7 years ago before it was given to me. Running super fast but everything else is good.) but needs to be regulated, Not sure what movement it is but i pretty much intend to stick to cheap japan stuff for awhile because 1. I love seiko and 2. i'm familiar with them already.

Out of curiosity tho if the jewel is on the bottom of the balance cock for your swiss stuff do you have to remove the hairspring just to get at them? how do you even remove them? By removing the etachron studs or whatever? 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

nobody can seem to agree. And the only way i could find out what works best for me is probably by breaking some stuff. 

unfortunately thats how it is mate most of the time. And it all comes down to different experiences. Often there is no right or wrong way just different ways. And yes mate tough way to learn but you never forget the lesson. 

8 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Given the fact it is super easy to remove the balance jewel with a little rodico in these movements the sandwich method for a seiko might be safer than it is for some old swiss stuff because i'm pretty sure once that cap jewels is out there isn't really much of anything to put pressure on the top pivot of the balance wheel, ther's just a big hole there..

Yep, i would fully agree with that in this situation.  

11 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Out of curiosity tho if the jewel is on the bottom of the balance cock for your swiss stuff do you have to remove the hairspring just to get at them? how do you even remove them? By removing the etachron studs or whatever

Its not in every case maybe 40 % of the watches i repair. Anything from the 30s up to the 60s. I can actually do it without without removing the hairspring but its tricky and can be risky. I have to make sure that I'm focused and well fed . But i usually take the collet off. The jewels are a fixed ie. no shock protection and are held in with 2 screw from underneath.  The screws can be on the top also which is nice then. 

[Birbdad]

18 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 

Its not in every case maybe 40 % of the watches i repair. Anything from the 30s up to the 60s.

Don't forget i'm not trying to get into this as a business, just a hobby.
Ideally i would like to be able to buy cool watches for cheap that don't run or need work, fix them up and just wear them. I also want to be able to service my own watches into perpetuity.  

I'm getting a free working bell matic that works but probably hasn't been serviced in 20 years. Not at the level yet where i want to tackle that but that's a perfect case of why i want to do this. Neat little oddities and bits of history like that that deserve to run again.

[mikepilk]

3 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

I'm getting a free working bell matic that works but probably hasn't been serviced in 20 years. Not at the level yet where i want to tackle that but that's a perfect case of why i want to do this. Neat little oddities and bits of history like that that deserve to run again.

I have a couple of Bell-Matics - a good watch to move on to when you are more proficient with basic movements. A bit "fiddly" if you are just starting out. There are good service guides to help with this movement, when you are ready.

Seiko_4006A.pdf

[Neverenoughwatches]

13 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Don't forget i'm not trying to get into this as a business, just a hobby.
Ideally i would like to be able to buy cool watches for cheap that don't run or need work, fix them up and just wear them. I also want to be able to service my own watches into perpetuity.  

I'm getting a free working bell matic that works but probably hasn't been serviced in 20 years. Not at the level yet where i want to tackle that but that's a perfect case of why i want to do this. Neat little oddities and bits of history like that that deserve to run again.

I am the same birb. I'm an avid collector. Everything i buy and fix, i keep and wear.  You have read my profile name haven't you lol.  I have around 120 watches and pocket watches also a few clocks. Many still in need of repair. Have always been a tool geek, my watchroom is my man cave as i love fixing things especially watches. I dont own anything high end, i would much rather have half a dozen different nice mid level watches that ive repaired than own something like a Rolex. My collection mostly consists of vintage Oris , Smiths , Ingersoll, Tissot, Seiko, Bulova, Venus, Junghans  and military watches. Then a whole array of other less known.

[Birbdad]

35 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I have a couple of Bell-Matics - a good watch to move on to when you are more proficient with basic movements. A bit "fiddly" if you are just starting out. There are good service guides to help with this movement, when you are ready.

Seiko_4006A.pdf 1.5 MB · 4 downloads

So let's say all my work on 7s26's goes swimmingly and i can disassemble and reassemble and service and lube a 7s26 without any issues.  Think i'd be ready to tackle the bellmatic then? Also thanks for the tech sheet! There's a few great vids on youtube including one from mark of them doing a full service on a bellmatic.

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

So let's say all my work on 7s26's goes swimmingly and i can disassemble and reassemble and service and lube a 7s26 without any issues.  Think i'd be ready to tackle the bellmatic then? Also thanks for the tech sheet! There's a few great vids on youtube including one from mark of them doing a full service on a bellmatic.

I waited several years and serviced 50+ watches before moving on to more complicated movements - alarm watches, then finally chrono.  But, if you are confident, and methodical, I don't see why not. (Though I think you would benefit from servicing several simpler models first!)

To give you an idea of what's involved, here's the keyless and part of the alarm section of a Bell-Matic -

Edited July 30, 2022 by mikepilk

[Birbdad]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

I waited several years and serviced 50+ watches before moving on to more complicated movements - alarm watches, then finally chrono.  But, if you are confident, and methodical, I don't see why not. (Though I think you would benefit from servicing several simpler models first!)

To give you an idea of what's involved, here's the keyless and part of the alarm section of a Bell-Matic -

Oh yeah i've seen it.  At the same time as long as i got a data sheet and a step by step video to follow I think i shouldn't have a ton of trouble at least on the assembly and disassembly. 
If i got all the parts and i got instructions on where to put them i feel like i could do it.

What i'm less confident about is being able to wind up the tiny alarm hairspring by hand, things like that. I"m not gonna dive right into it. I might buy one of the old 7009 junkers from india that are all over ebay.

EDIT:
I also realized i never really got an answer unless i missed it to this question.

Let's say you're doing the dangle method, you pull out the thing by the balance cock, the balance wheel is dangling.
How do you safely flip it over the assembly to rest it properly with the cock down and wheel up? Nobody EVER does this on camera.  

I could be wrong but it felt like without something to support the weight of the wheel that flipping the balance cock over is gonna leave the wheel behind and mash the stretched out hairspring against the side before it flops back over on top and that wouldn't be ideal.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Birbdad

[mikepilk]

On 7/28/2022 at 9:28 AM, Kalanag said:

Modern (white) hair springs with screwless balance wheels should easily withstand the hanging. Old blue hair springs with heavy screw type balance wheels might not.

I never grab the cock and the wheel as a sandwich. Nevertheless it might be done safely when an antishock jewel setting is present.

Feeling very stupid at the moment 

Heed the above warning from @Kalanag .  With Incabloc I've never had problems holding the baIance+cock together.

But .... I just fitted a new balance staff to an AS 984 which does not have shock protection. The blue hairspring is VERY soft, so I gently held the balance and cock together with tweezers to re-fit. 

No gently enough, as I broke the top pivot. I think two pairs of tweezers is the way to go, one to hold the cock and the other underneath the balance for support.

[jdm]

42 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I think two pairs of tweezers is the way to go, one to hold the cock and the other underneath the balance for support.

Unfortunate accident. Three pronged tweezers anyone? Or a clever add-on for regular tweezers. The balance cock doesn't really need to be grabbed, just kept in place over the wheel. That is, of course, easier said than done. Maybe the HS would have taken brief and controlled dangling? After all that's the way it's taught in school.