Does anyone actually use the Seiko lubricants?

[JohnFrum]

Hi everyone.

Looking at the Seiko documentation for the 6r15/nh3x/7s26 etc, I see that Seiko basically uses one oil - Citizen AO-3A and one grease - Seiko S6, to lubricate those movements. They also use Seiko S4 grease but for just one part - the first reduction wheel. 
Reading the various threads, it appears that those working on Seiko movements however just use the Moebius 9010/9104/9415/9504 combination with 8141/8217 for mainsprings.

A question: does anyone here actually use the Seiko oils? How do they compare to the Euro alternatives?
Also, what braking grease does Seiko use in their 6r/nh/7s barrels - S3 or S2? 

[jdm]

10 minutes ago, JohnFrum said:

Seiko basically uses one oil - Citizen AO-3A

Seiko doesn't mention any Citizen product. You may have read about "A oil", that's Moebius 9010.

 

10 minutes ago, JohnFrum said:

Seiko S4 grease but for just one part - the first reduction wheel.

The magic hands ratchet wheel. S4 is graphite loaded grease which supposedly helps with metal to metal friction.

 

10 minutes ago, JohnFrum said:

what braking grease does Seiko use in their 6r/nh/7s barrels - S3 or S2? 

We can't know what they use at the factory, and since the barrels it's supposed to be never opened and messed with (which is an excellent idea, albeit one that many beginners find difficult to accept) there is no recommendation about in their documents. We know however that is back, sticky stuff that may look like S4. Do not be surprised however if opening a Seiko barrels  you will find it totally clean and dry. Seiko has multiple factories and multiple lubrication standards, including terrible or none (except balance jewels).

[JohnFrum]

21 minutes ago, jdm said:

Seiko doesn't mention any Citizen product. You may have read about "A oil", that's Moebius 9010.

Thanks.

The 6R15C/D says “AO-3(Moebius-A)” which I had assumed was Citizen AO-3A (sold by CousinsUK). 

With the discontinuation of the 6R15, I purchased a complete NE15 movement and a 6R mainspring barrel for future servicing of my Sarb 033 and 035. Doubt I will ever need to replace the mainsprings but good to have spare parts for the future. I also have a NH36 put aside as a parts donor. You can probably tell I am fond of my Sarbs. 

[jdm]

24 minutes ago, JohnFrum said:

The 6R15C/D says “AO-3(Moebius-A)” which I had assumed was Citizen AO-3A (sold by CousinsUK).

Probably that means either one, but didn’t wanted to mention Citizen explicitely.

 

24 minutes ago, JohnFrum said:

For future servicing of my Sarb 033 and 035.

I recommend that you do a large amount of practice on other easier and cheaper mov.ts to be well prepared for when that time will come. Which can be surprisingly longer than expected.

[JohnFrum]

53 minutes ago, jdm said:

I recommend that you do a large amount of practice on other easier and cheaper mov.ts to be well prepared for when that time will come. Which can be surprisingly longer than expected.

Bought a 6497 movement (actually a Chinese clone of the original Seagull Chinese 6497 clone - ST3600-2) for learning purposes. Assuming skill set improves, will then practice on a Seiko 5 I never wear anymore. Probably on a NH36 movement as well before I attempt working on a 6R15 watch. 
 

There was a working Zodiac 52 manual movement (with crystal/original dial and hour hand) listed on Ebay for 15 dollars. Bought it for practice as well. No technical guide available but should be hopefully be similar to the 6497 (with its excellent documentation). 

Edited July 26, 2022 by JohnFrum

[watchweasol]

Zodiac 52 parts sheet attached might be of some use.      cheers

Zodiac 52 (1).pdf

[JohnFrum]

3 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Zodiac 52 parts sheet attached might be of some use.      cheers

Zodiac 52 (1).pdf 51.83 kB · 2 downloads

Indeed it will. Thanks. 

[grsnovi]

I have never tackled a Seiko watch. I suspect that the folks at Seiko are perfectly able to create synthetic lubrication that is equivalent to the more common Swiss oils (Moebius). The reality is they are all too expensive and if you ever find any Seiko lubrication guides they'll likely call out Seiko oils.

As has been mentioned above (and elsewhere) practice on a less complicated watch movement first. A Seagull movement won't care if you used Seiko oil, Moebius oil or an inexpensive light oil and some Molykote DX white paste grease.

There are a number of videos that you can watch, this one is a good place to start.

[JohnFrum]

Have been following this channel. A fantastic learning resource. 
 

[JohnFrum]

From the 2011 and 2021 Seiko Watch Repairing Tools catalogs:

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, JohnFrum said:

From the 2011 and 2021 Seiko Watch Repairing Tools catalogs:

I don't suppose the catalogs are PDFs where can we get a catalog?

Then there's a problem with catalogs or even tech sheets for that matter. Like for instance the Rolex tech sheet specifies Rolex lubricants. The problem is Rolex doesn't sell those lubricants which means you can never service a Rolex watch because you'll never get the lubricants. The same as the Seiko watches nice catalog but can we order the lubricants out of the catalog?

That means typically people come to the discussion group like this and ask what can I use instead and then people make recommendations of what can be purchased and what does work versus whatever is specified by the manufacturer that none of us will ever probably get. Although sometimes the Seiko and even citizen lubricants are available out there but they're hard to find.

[JohnFrum]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I don't suppose the catalogs are PDFs where can we get a catalog?

…

Then there's a problem with catalogs or even tech sheets for that matter. Like Although sometimes the Seiko and even citizen lubricants are available out there but they're hard to find.

PDFs attached

Esslinger in the USA and Cousins in the UK currently have the Seiko S4 and S6. 

Cousins also has the S3 and the Citizen AO2.

A number of Japanese online sellers offer the Citizen AO3 as well as the other lubricants  

It does not appear that S2 is still being manufactured by Seiko. It does not feature in the 2021 catalog and online sellers don’t list it. 
 

seikotoolcatalog2021.pdfseikotoolcatalog2011.pdf

As regards use of S4 and S6 greases on pivots, the following advice is noted:

Lubricating the pivots of train wheel

Before assembling the wheels, apply S-4 to the bottom surface of the hole jewel.

Set the wheel by inserting its pivot in the lubricated hole jewel.

Note: No effect can be expected by lubricating the hole jewel from the upper portion after assembling the wheel.

Edited December 24, 2022 by JohnFrum

[JohnR725]

Thank you of the PDF of the tool catalogs. There is also a website out there that has a lot of this is a find it at this link

https://www.plus9time.com/seiko-tools

Oh then there is a other problem which is money to be blunt. Typically on hobbyist group everyone objects to the cost of the Swiss oil's. Then we find out that we have to have those expenses Swiss oils and what would a set of the Seiko oils cost us? Plus then we find out that if I worked on Seiko watches I need Seiko oils and separate oils for the citizen watches. Or well we don't have to worry about Rolex lubricants they don't even sell them to anybody so that's not going to be an issue but if you're working a Rolex watches they recommend their lubricants. So we end up with a whole bunch of lubrication when do we really need different lubricants for all the different watches were servicing seems like that cost a lot of money for all those lubricants.

 

[lxt123]

Late to this topic. Here are the info for the oils:

https://www.buzzufy.com/blog/2018/09/14/explanations-on-types-of-seiko-watch-oils-s-2-s-3-s-4-and-moebius/