Balance staff removal

[Neverenoughwatches]

Hi everyone, UK i hope you are all enjoying our extra day  bank holiday. 

Just a quicky on balance staff removal. Is the staff reusable after being removed from the wheel for say a future repivot if that was broken. Might there be enough meat to redo the undercut and reform a rivet ? Thank you for any replies 

[RichardHarris123]

I don't know but I think you should be able to reuse the staff. 

[watchweasol]

I Think we are looking at a NO answer. As most staffs are rivited on the the balance wheel hub means to remove it without damaging the hub the rivit has to be cut off  using a lathe or the likes of a Platax tool (Bergeon),  or the K&D staff removal tools. doing this renders the staff useless. Any attempt to recut the seat results in the removal of metal and if you could re fit it will result in weight issues and poise issues. So therfore not reccomended.

[nickelsilver]

Supposing the staff was punched or pushed out, and you have a lathe and are skilled, and manage to remove the extra diameter of the enlarged rivet, there might be a small chance of it working- but the rivet height (the metal that gets deformed out and down to secure to the balance) is now much lower, and the metal has been work hardened in addition to its heat treatment, so it's a toss up.

 

I've never done it, and I even had a Major Manufacurer (did their overflow vintage work) send me a watch with a broken staff and a used staff to put in the watch; I made a new staff, didn't even try the used one, and they were happy. I just didn't feel like wasting time.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, watchweasol said:

I Think we are looking at a NO answer. As most staffs are rivited on the the balance wheel hub means to remove it without damaging the hub the rivit has to be cut off  using a lathe or the likes of a Platax tool (Bergeon),  or the K&D staff removal tools. doing this renders the staff useless. Any attempt to recut the seat results in the removal of metal and if you could re fit it will result in weight issues and poise issues. So therfore not reccomended.

Thanks ww. That was the answer i expected tbh, but hoped for something different.  It was in relation to joblot staffs on ebay . Tins of them with broken pivots, i wondered why anyone would try to sell them. Apart from the fact unable to identify them. Some people will sell anything useable or not. I thought of practising with them.

[watchweasol]

Definitley not worth the bother, if they are broke they are useless unless you have the wherewithall to effect repairs even thenI dont think they would be trust worthy .

[JohnR725]

15 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It was in relation to joblot staffs on ebay . Tins of them with broken pivots,

yes you do seem to find staffs with broken pivots. But there also assortments of staffs that are brand-new. Trick is to find an assortment of usable staffs. Where I work somebody gave us a bunch of tools including an assortment of American pocket watch staffs. All of them brand-new and it's a shame you can't buy that assortment anymore?  basically every single staff in there was usable several were Hamilton 992B.  a lot of Waltham friction staff's and just basically a lot of really usable staffs. On the other hand have also seen  Bergeron packets of Swiss staffs.

[Neverenoughwatches]

13 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

yes you do seem to find staffs with broken pivots. But there also assortments of staffs that are brand-new. Trick is to find an assortment of usable staffs. Where I work somebody gave us a bunch of tools including an assortment of American pocket watch staffs. All of them brand-new and it's a shame you can't buy that assortment anymore?  basically every single staff in there was usable several were Hamilton 992B.  a lot of Waltham friction staff's and just basically a lot of really usable staffs. On the other hand have also seen  Bergeron packets of Swiss staffs.

Thanks John. I'm wondering how you identify them, which movement they will fit. Is there a data base with staff dimensions ? Ive bought some stems but a couple of the packets became open during the delivery and are now mixed up.  A database of staff and stem dimensions would be really useful. Although i still cant see how you would easily match up a staff or stem without knowing at least the manufacturer. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[JohnR725]

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

A database of staff and stem dimensions would be really useful.

one of the problems with databases for watch repair parts are they can become incredibly huge. American pocket watch staffs narrow things down and staffs like Hamilton 992B are easy to spot because are unique. plus quite a few American pocket watch staffs are unique enough 30 spotted assortment when you're looking. When you get to the Swiss stuff then it becomes more challenging as there are so many varieties and variations.

Then yes there are all kinds of reference books out there.  like for instance ego here search for the word staff and on the second page either get staffs listed by size it's basically in the end of the book if you have the entire book

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=staff

or there's this website where you get both staff and stem dimensions

https://www.balancestaffs.com/about.php

 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

one of the problems with databases for watch repair parts are they can become incredibly huge. American pocket watch staffs narrow things down and staffs like Hamilton 992B are easy to spot because are unique. plus quite a few American pocket watch staffs are unique enough 30 spotted assortment when you're looking. When you get to the Swiss stuff then it becomes more challenging as there are so many varieties and variations.

Then yes there are all kinds of reference books out there.  like for instance ego here search for the word staff and on the second page either get staffs listed by size it's basically in the end of the book if you have the entire book

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=staff

or there's this website where you get both staff and stem dimensions

https://www.balancestaffs.com/about.php

 

 

 

Appreciate that thanks John. I sort of figured the difficulties youve mentioned. Each to verify a possible known staff, but not to start from scratch identifying an unknown staff,i would imagine virtually impossible considering the almost infinite differences. 

[praezis]

22 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

virtually impossible considering the almost infinite differences. 

Not really. Having one of the reference books (or its copy from Cousins), e.g Ronda, you can start with total length and get a much smaller selection. Then select by next important size, the rivet shoulder, and get a smaller selection again. And so on.

Time consuming anyway if you have lots of staffs to sort.

Frank

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 minutes ago, praezis said:

Not really. Having one of the reference books (or its copy from Cousins), e.g Ronda, you can start with total length and get a much smaller selection. Then select by next important size, the rivet shoulder, and get a smaller selection again. And so on.

Time consuming anyway if you have lots of staffs to sort.

Frank

 

11 minutes ago, praezis said:

Not really. Having one of the reference books (or its copy from Cousins), e.g Ronda, you can start with total length and get a much smaller selection. Then select by next important size, the rivet shoulder, and get a smaller selection again. And so on.

Time consuming anyway if you have lots of staffs to sort.

Frank

Thats very helpful thank you Frank. Involves knowing the movement maker though. I have a selection of two or known movement stems to box up, so i will definitely try your suggestion

[praezis]

On 6/5/2022 at 1:58 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Involves knowing the movement maker though

No, these books also contain tables that are sorted by length, not by maker.

Frank

[JohnR725]

55 minutes ago, praezis said:

No, these books also contain tables that are sorted by length, not by maker.

a example of this would be the bestfit books. I snipped out a couple of relevant pages. As you can see with just dimensions you can figure out what staff and/or stem you have. then once you get a part number somewhere else in the book you'll tell you which watches use that part number.

Another interesting feature of this is mystery watches? another thing you can use these sections for would be if you have a watch that you don't know what it is. You can then measure the stem and find one close and see if any of the watches match what you have.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 6/4/2022 at 12:57 PM, JohnR725 said:

one of the problems with databases for watch repair parts are they can become incredibly huge. American pocket watch staffs narrow things down and staffs like Hamilton 992B are easy to spot because are unique. plus quite a few American pocket watch staffs are unique enough 30 spotted assortment when you're looking. When you get to the Swiss stuff then it becomes more challenging as there are so many varieties and variations.

Then yes there are all kinds of reference books out there.  like for instance ego here search for the word staff and on the second page either get staffs listed by size it's basically in the end of the book if you have the entire book

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=staff

or there's this website where you get both staff and stem dimensions

https://www.balancestaffs.com/about.php

 

 

 

Thank you john , ive just around to looking at those. A great help  

On 6/5/2022 at 12:42 PM, praezis said:

Not really. Having one of the reference books (or its copy from Cousins), e.g Ronda, you can start with total length and get a much smaller selection. Then select by next important size, the rivet shoulder, and get a smaller selection again. And so on.

Time consuming anyway if you have lots of staffs to sort.

Frank

Thank you frank, im a bit of an obsessive freak when it comes to organising things, i will enjoy that.  You should see my works van, a place for everyghing .

23 hours ago, praezis said:

No, these books also contain tables that are sorted by length, not by maker.

Frank

That makes things so much easier. Thank you again  Frank

22 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

a example of this would be the bestfit books. I snipped out a couple of relevant pages. As you can see with just dimensions you can figure out what staff and/or stem you have. then once you get a part number somewhere else in the book you'll tell you which watches use that part number.

Another interesting feature of this is mystery watches? another thing you can use these sections for would be if you have a watch that you don't know what it is. You can then measure the stem and find one close and see if any of the watches match what you have.

 

All this info in the Bestfit books 1 and 2 ? I have a chance of buying the original copies

[watchweasol]

Hi If you have a chance of getting the paper versions of the books 1 and ll  worthhaving , sorting through the CD version is a bit laboroius.

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi If you have a chance of getting the paper versions of the books 1 and ll  worthhaving , sorting through the CD version is a bit laboroius.

thanks ww. I think we discussed preferring books against digital once before. id much rather have paper to flick through 

[JohnR725]

31 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I think we discussed preferring books against digital once before. id much rather have paper to flick through

Some reference books having them as PDF is actually quite wonderful. Means you to have your library in multiple locations and typically just want to look up something. But a book or books like bestfit are you a strange category all by themselves. Their reference book but they have so much information in them that from time to time everybody should pick up their book and just thumb through to refresh yourself of what's in There.

[jdm]

On 6/8/2022 at 11:25 AM, watchweasol said:

Hi If you have a chance of getting the paper versions of the books 1 and ll  worthhaving , sorting through the CD version is a bit laboroius.

When a book is properly digitized (and bestfit files are like that), it's done  by Optical Character Recognition, so they are fully searchable. That means one can surely find all occurrences of a given word in much less time.

[watchweasol]

I had the searchable copy but got lost in a transfer only have the ordinary version but better then nothing. Although Managed to buy one of the books.   If anyone has the searchable versions I am sure there are many menbers who would be gratefull for a link.. I know Old Hippy pu them on the sytem a while back using "meadiafire" may be still able to locate them.

[jdm]

2 hours ago, watchweasol said:

I know Old Hippy pu them on the sytem a while back using "meadiafire" may be still able to locate them.

Now pinned

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 minutes ago, jdm said:

Now pinned

 

Hi. Looks like the links no longer work. 403 error code

[watchweasol]

They work Ok   just tried them   .  click on the heading bestfit catalogues scroll back to the post Old Hippy put up and the likns are there and work.

[escabena]

Hello, in this link here you also have them: 

https://watchguy.co.uk/cgi-bin/files?subdir=BestFit&dir=Technical Manuals&action=documents

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 hours ago, jdm said:

Now pinned

 

After a little figuring out i managed to download and save files for both bestfit books 1 and 2. Thank you so much everyone involved with helping me with this. You are all stars   ❤