Lost Click !

[LeCorbusier]

I have put the barrel and gear train back together and fitted the ratchet wheel and click. What I immediately notice is that there is play in the ratchet wheel which can tip side to side. I suspect that when power is wound into the spring it will force the barrel to tip which will presumably put pressure on the centre wheel pinion? 

[LeCorbusier]

I have removed the play from the barrel bridge, but the barrel itself still has a lot of play. I think because the lid doesn't fit/click into place the barrel itself can pivot on the arbor even though the arbour is running true.

The barrel is 2mm in height and 10.6mm external diam with the barrel wheel being 11.8mm diam. What are the chances of tracking down a replacement?

[ifibrin]

4 hours ago, LeCorbusier said:

What I am hoping is that if I can sort out the play in the barrel bridge so the arbor runs true, I can get the barrel set in such a way that it doesn't move on the arbor and so will deliver the power. Presently the barrel has a lot of movement.

I was going to use my staking set to gently close the pivot hole in the bridge and then re-open using a smoothing broach to hopefully sort the arbor. I have to admit I wasn't expecting this issue with the barrel. 

Before you close the (enlarged?) hole for the barrel arbor, it might be best if you take a picture of the mainplate, and barrel bridge for us all to take a look at first. When there’s wear on the mainplate barrel pivot, the hole can be oval so it might be difficult to broach it to the correct location accurately.

Best practice would be to replace the worn hole in the mainplate with a bushing or a jewel, but you need to find a way to accurately determine where the center of the pivot to be. More experienced members on this board should be able to tell you how to do that, but it might require some equipment and more practice first.

3 hours ago, LeCorbusier said:

Question .... relating to the barrel. Is the barrel lid a friction fit onto the arbor, or should it spin freely in the lid pivot hole? On my Barrel the arbour is a tight fit and the lid spins with the arbor.

The barrel lid should fit tightly onto the barrel drum, but the barrel arbor should be able to spin freely in the empty barrel. When the watch is running, the barrel arbor is stationary, and the unwinding of the mainspring in the barrel causes the entire barrel drum to rotate. When the watch is wound by stem, the barrel drum is still rotating slowly as before, but the barrel arbor is being rotated via action of the stem to coil up (wind up) the mainspring. As you can see, the barrel arbor and the barrel drum move independently so they should have minimal friction.

[LeCorbusier]

13 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

The barrel lid should fit tightly onto the barrel drum, but the barrel arbor should be able to spin freely in the empty barrel. When the watch is running, the barrel arbor is stationary, and the unwinding of the mainspring in the barrel causes the entire barrel drum to rotate. When the watch is wound by stem, the barrel drum is still rotating slowly as before, but the barrel arbor is being rotated via action of the stem to coil up (wind up) the mainspring. As you can see, the barrel arbor and the barrel drum move independently so they should have minimal friction.

Oh dear. The lid falls out of the Barrel  when its in the movement.. it seems to be getting worse. When I dismantled last time it was sitting on the main plate. When the barrel is in place with the barrel bridge fitted, the barrel will move with a rocking motion whilst the arbor has little to no movement in the bridge.

Barrel bridge

Close up of pivot hole

 

Underside of pivot hole

 

Main Plate pivot hole

 

Barrel arbor

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, LeCorbusier said:

Question .... relating to the barrel. Is the barrel lid a friction fit onto the arbor, or should it spin freely in the lid pivot hole? On my Barrel the arbour is a tight fit and the lid spins with the th

The arbor shouldn't  be a tight fit to the lid. Sounds like the lid is wrong 

Edited April 21, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, LeCorbusier said:

Oh dear. The lid falls out of the Barrel  when its in the movement.. it seems to be getting worse. When I dismantled last time it was sitting on the main plate. When the barrel is in place with the barrel bridge fitted, the barrel will move with a rocking motion whilst the arbor has little to no movement in the bridge.

Barrel bridge

Close up of pivot hole

 

Underside of pivot hole

 

Main Plate pivot hole

 

Barrel arbor

The main plate hole looks well worn. The arbor has a lot of scoring as well . How does the arbor on its own look in the main-plate  ?You might want to rethink doing this yourself.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[LeCorbusier]

In the absence of more experienced observations, I am coming to the same conclusion re: the main plate hole. Looking at what is happening when the watch is assembled, I believe I am getting movement at the base allowing the arbor to tilt with the pressure of the spring. The movement at the barrel bridge doesn't appear too great but the barrel wheel is tilting a fair bit. 

Presumably the solution would be to fit a bushing ... which would also allow adjustment of the end shake which feels excessive.

I certainly can't make or fit a bushing. 

Will need to consider options.

[Neverenoughwatches]

25 minutes ago, LeCorbusier said:

In the absence of more experienced observations, I am coming to the same conclusion re: the main plate hole. Looking at what is happening when the watch is assembled, I believe I am getting movement at the base allowing the arbor to tilt with the pressure of the spring. The movement at the barrel bridge doesn't appear too great but the barrel wheel is tilting a fair bit. 

Presumably the solution would be to fit a bushing ... which would also allow adjustment of the end shake which feels excessive.

I certainly can't make or fit a bushing. 

Will need to consider options.

Just trying the arbor in its main plate seating and observing it's play will tell you what you need to know. Bushings you can buy. Making the hole for it needs to be accurate  and in exactly  the right place. It is something I've been thinking of trying. I've seen a bushing tool on ebay a few times, no idea how it works or how well. John loves to get stuck into this sort of complex job also nickelsilver might help you. I think you will need some parts as well. An arbor a barrel lid, but you may be able to make the lid.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[LeCorbusier]

Are there any guides/instructions for bushing a barrel bridge/main plate. Is it possible without a lathe?

I have fitted brass bushing in the past in model engineering using a drill and broach and using the 'true' underside of the pivot hole to centre the position (where no oval ... ing  has occurred) - but this seems a whole other level of accuracy?

Is bushing the barrel pivot holes a run of the mill job for a pro or an involved exercise? - the movement itself doesn't appear to be anything special, but it has considerable sentimental value.

[LeCorbusier]

I have a mini woodworking lathe and am vaguely wondering if I can set this up for use with gravers? Might be worth an experiment on some scrap. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, LeCorbusier said:

Are there any guides/instructions for bushing a barrel bridge/main plate. Is it possible without a lathe?

I have fitted brass bushing in the past in model engineering using a drill and broach and using the 'true' underside of the pivot hole to centre the position (where no oval ... ing  has occurred) - but this seems a whole other level of accuracy?

Is bushing the barrel pivot holes a run of the mill job for a pro or an involved exercise? - the movement itself doesn't appear to be anything special, but it has considerable sentimental value.

Im not sure what is involved with bushing, there's a few on here  that will know. Reach out to some of the experienced with a private message

Edited April 22, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, LeCorbusier said:

I have a mini woodworking lathe and am vaguely wondering if I can set this up for use with gravers? Might be worth an experiment on some scrap. 

Yup experimentation is my middle name. Go for it.

[ifibrin]

20 hours ago, LeCorbusier said:

Are there any guides/instructions for bushing a barrel bridge/main plate. Is it possible without a lathe?

I have fitted brass bushing in the past in model engineering using a drill and broach and using the 'true' underside of the pivot hole to centre the position (where no oval ... ing  has occurred) - but this seems a whole other level of accuracy?

Is bushing the barrel pivot holes a run of the mill job for a pro or an involved exercise? - the movement itself doesn't appear to be anything special, but it has considerable sentimental value.

 

I would not attempt a re-bushing or a rejewelling on a piece that has significant value to me. You will need a watchmaker's lathe, and sufficient experience before even thinking of attempting such a repair. To further complicate matters, your movement appears to be a ladies' size movement, which will make things tricky at the best of times.

Take a look at the tutorial posted on omegaforums for rebushing: https://omegaforums.net/threads/common-faults-omega-861-movement-barrel-bushing.123076/

Your best option would be to send this off to get someone professional to re-bush, or re-jewel, the mainplate and/or barrel bridge.

[LeCorbusier]

3 hours ago, ifibrin said:

 

I would not attempt a re-bushing or a rejewelling on a piece that has significant value to me. You will need a watchmaker's lathe, and sufficient experience before even thinking of attempting such a repair. To further complicate matters, your movement appears to be a ladies' size movement, which will make things tricky at the best of times.

Take a look at the tutorial posted on omegaforums for rebushing: https://omegaforums.net/threads/common-faults-omega-861-movement-barrel-bushing.123076/

Your best option would be to send this off to get someone professional to re-bush, or re-jewel, the mainplate and/or barrel bridge.

Thanks for the caution and the link. I really appreciate the guidance and the steer  

I will definitely not touch the movement at present .... and you may well be right that it will remain beyond my skill set - in which case I will try and find someone to help.

However, I am definitely going to acquire some bushings and have a go on a suitable thickness of material. That should put things to bed either way. If it goes anything near ok, it might be something to share and ask for advice and input - if not I can quietly bin the evidence and pretend I have more commonsense 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, LeCorbusier said:

Thanks for the caution and the link. I really appreciate the guidance and the steer  

I will definitely not touch the movement at present .... and you may well be right that it will remain beyond my skill set - in which case I will try and find someone to help.

However, I am definitely going to acquire some bushings and have a go on a suitable thickness of material. That should put things to bed either way. If it goes anything near ok, it might be something to share and ask for advice and input - if not I can quietly bin the evidence and pretend I have more commonsense 

 

Fully agree with ifibrin mate. You will need at least a couple of years of fairly intensive practise and experience under your belt . By all means experiment, it's my favourite  thing to do and one of the best ways to learn imo. But not on something of value, I learnt that in the very beginning. I know and have worked with a lot of people in my industry that think something is an easy job without thinking it through. Only to come unstuck and have created a bigger problem. This is really only learnt I think when the reality of what they are actually capable of hits home and they become aware of what is possible and not possible at their level of experience  and skill. But you also need to sometimes  push yourself to another level, or will never come. Baby steps mate that's the way forward. The good ones on here will give you an indication of what is doable . Good luck. Keep practicing and keep experimenting.

[LeCorbusier]

I have found a replacement movement which fits the watch case and matches the dial feet. Have yet to strip it down and clean/service it, but a preliminary inspection suggests its in better nick .

The question I have is .... it is missing the winding stem. Can anyone give any pointers on how I might go about finding a stem that will work?

The movement is a Swiss Parrenin with HP HN42 on the dial side.

 

[watchweasol]

Hi  You could try cousins for an assortment in the hope one is close enough or have a look at windingstems.com website for starters. 

[RichardHarris123]

Cousins sell assorted stems.

[LeCorbusier]

16 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Cousins sell assorted stems.

I have these and unfortunately no joy. The markings on the face are HP (Parrenin?) then H2 then HN42.

Cousins have.....

Would HP 40 be correct? .... or am I completely misreading things?