Lost Click !

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

If done correctly there's no guessing at all- that's the thing, haha. But like I said, even trained (Swiss) watchmakers I've known approach it as a guessing game. Not all, but still surprising.

This is me we're talking about.  

[LeCorbusier]

I have put the watch back together after cleaning it ... it wasn't running before .... and I am getting pretty dreadful amplitude. The timegrapher is I think giving misleading readings because when I observe on a slo-mo taken on my phone it is barely achieving 90 degrees either side of the centre but the reading is 178 degrees. It is also giving me a 6.7ms beat error, but don't know if I can trust that reading given the amplitude.

If beat error is out by that much would that cause such low amplitude?

 

[LeCorbusier]

There also seems to be some movement in the barrel which I assume would definitely effect the amplitude?

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by LeCorbusier

[nickelsilver]

18 minutes ago, LeCorbusier said:

I have put the watch back together after cleaning it ... it wasn't running before .... and I am getting pretty dreadful amplitude. The timegrapher is I think giving misleading readings because when I observe on a slo-mo taken on my phone it is barely achieving 90 degrees either side of the centre but the reading is 178 degrees. It is also giving me a 6.7ms beat error, but don't know if I can trust that reading given the amplitude.

If beat error is out by that much would that cause such low amplitude?

 

Yes sounds like the timing machine is doubling the amplitude. That beat error isn't helping the amplitude, but isn't accounting for 180 degrees that are missing.

[LeCorbusier]

1 minute ago, nickelsilver said:

Yes sounds like the timing machine is doubling the amplitude. That beat error isn't helping the amplitude, but isn't accounting for 180 degrees that are missing.

why would it double the amplitude?

[nickelsilver]

1 minute ago, LeCorbusier said:

why would it double the amplitude?

The way the machine works to capture the signal and calculate the amplitude depends on the watch working in a certain predictable manner; the fact that it's barely running means that the sounds it uses aren't being predictable- often this leads to no readout at all, but sometimes the machine tries really hard and comes up with something that makes sense to it but not in the real world.

[LeCorbusier]

I have sighted the impulse jewel between the pins and it is off to the left. There is also movement of the barrel in the barrel bridge pivot housing so it looks like I need to try and correct these two issues before going any further ... hey ho!

Edited April 20, 2022 by LeCorbusier

[LeCorbusier]

Next question I have on this watch. The barrel itself has a loose lid. The lid has some friction with the arbor - which I assume needs to be freed? but does not click into place but simply sits there?

I assume that the friction on the arbor will reduce the power? Is the lid itself a problem? and if so is there a way to tighten it so it clicks into the barrel? ... or can it simply sit there?

Presumably finding a replacement barrel would be difficult given we don't have an idea as to the movement?

[LeCorbusier]

Actually ... looking closely it appears that the outside coil of the spring is sitting slightly higher than the rest of the coil preventing the lid from seating ... when I remove the coil the lid clicks into place - a tad loose perhaps but it does click in.

[Neverenoughwatches]

23 minutes ago, LeCorbusier said:

Actually ... looking closely it appears that the outside coil of the spring is sitting slightly higher than the rest of the coil preventing the lid from seating ... when I remove the coil the lid clicks into place - a tad loose perhaps but it does click in.

Put some pictures  up of the barrel and parts matey.

[Neverenoughwatches]

24 minutes ago, LeCorbusier said:

Actually ... looking closely it appears that the outside coil of the spring is sitting slightly higher than the rest of the coil preventing the lid from seating ... when I remove the coil the lid clicks into place - a tad loose perhaps but it does click in.

The lid is usually a reasonable tight fit . Unless the barrel is the type with the rachet attached to the mainspring and the arbor just floats. Photos tell the story more than words in most cases.

[LeCorbusier]

I

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The lid is usually a reasonable tight fit . Unless the barrel is the type with the rachet attached to the mainspring and the arbor just floats. Photos tell the story more than words in most cases.

I know ... but in this case it is pretty beat up and touches where it fits! It does click in ... sort of .... but not well and there are gaps around as you can see.

 

[LeCorbusier]

If it sits in and holds ... then presumably so long as there isn't undue movement between the arbour and the barrel bridge is there any reason there would be a problem? Or does the lid stop the barrel moving on the arbor?

[Neverenoughwatches]

14 minutes ago, LeCorbusier said:

I

I know ... but in this case it is pretty beat up and touches where it fits! It does click in ... sort of .... but not well and there are gaps around as you can see.

 

Ok. I think someone might have reduced its diameter if they thought it was too tight to close back up. How easily did it come off?  Does it fit any better in a different  area ? What about making a lid ?

Edited April 21, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 minutes ago, LeCorbusier said:

I

I know ... but in this case it is pretty beat up and touches where it fits! It does click in ... sort of .... but not well and there are gaps around as you can see.

 

Yes mate the barrel wall  looks quite distorted. Over enthusiastic beginner ? Ham-fisted amateur?  Who knows. What sort of value watch we looking at any idea ?

[LeCorbusier]

Family heirloom ... so very much want to get it running. It is old (pre first world war I think) so not worried if its not super accurate.

[Neverenoughwatches]

Just now, LeCorbusier said:

Family heirloom ... so very much want to get it running. It is old (pre first world war I think) so not worried if its not super accurate.

Ok so you probably  want to retain as much as possible.  I'm in a similar situation with one that has loads of issues probably beyond repair or at least repair with my level of experience. But I have no attachment to it. Let's have a think, someone will have a good fix for you I'm sure. John is pretty good as is watchweasol and quite a few others. I can give you some ideas that I would try, but if its important  to you it will need a careful approach.  Let's see who pops into help. I know youve been hanging around waiting for some help.

[LeCorbusier]

What I am hoping is that if I can sort out the play in the barrel bridge so the arbor runs true, I can get the barrel set in such a way that it doesn't move on the arbor and so will deliver the power. Presently the barrel has a lot of movement.

I was going to use my staking set to gently close the pivot hole in the bridge and then re-open using a smoothing broach to hopefully sort the arbor. I have to admit I wasn't expecting this issue with the barrel. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

22 minutes ago, LeCorbusier said:

If it sits in and holds ... then presumably so long as there isn't undue movement between the arbour and the barrel bridge is there any reason there would be a problem? Or does the lid stop the barrel moving on the arbor?

At that age and amount  of wear to run well is probably  going to need a good pro to sort out. But you might be able get it to something  that you can be happy with and wear occasionally.  The lid has some scoring to it.

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 minutes ago, LeCorbusier said:

What I am hoping is that if I can sort out the play in the barrel bridge so the arbor runs true, I can get the barrel set in such a way that it doesn't move on the arbor and so will deliver the power. Presently the barrel has a lot of movement.

I was going to use my staking set to gently close the pivot hole in the bridge and then re-open using a smoothing broach to hopefully sort the arbor. I have to admit I wasn't expecting this issue with the barrel. 

How is the play from the arbor in the barrel itself is that OK?  How was the watch performing when assembled? 

Edited April 21, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[LeCorbusier]

4 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

How is the play from the arbor in the barrel itself is that OK?  How was the watch performing when assembled? 

Very low amplitude so difficult to say ... and the beat is out as well. One thing at a time as they say.

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 minutes ago, LeCorbusier said:

Very low amplitude so difficult to say ... and the beat is out as well. One thing at a time as they say.

If it were me and i am beginner  so fairly limited knowledge , but I've done a fair bit in a short time. I would want to see how well the power was in the barrel first. Assemble the barrel in the main plate  and train up to and Inc. The escape wheel. So no pallet as yet.  Then power up the barrel with a few turns of the stem, which you probably have to put back in. If you're full striped down with no key less works then you'll have to spin the barrel by hand not literally, I use a sharp Pegswood or toothpick. Get to this point then post a result. This is where I start to check and inspect when reassembling. Essentially at the core of the driving force, if the engine has low power then the vehicle will be slow.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[LeCorbusier]

Question .... relating to the barrel. Is the barrel lid a friction fit onto the arbor, or should it spin freely in the lid pivot hole? On my Barrel the arbour is a tight fit and the lid spins with the arbor.

[Kalanag]

The red „12“ was popular between 1915 and 1925.

Unfortunately your movement is not a Rolex (see the link and scroll down)

https://www.catawiki.com/de/l/6415727-rolex-ganz-fruhe-damenuhr-taschenuhr-von-rolex-englische-einfuhrpunzen-1916

Edited April 21, 2022 by Kalanag

[LeCorbusier]

The case and dial are a good match.