An elderly Elgin

[Manxcat]

I picked this Elgin up off eBay, the ruby's caught my eye.  It was sold as a non runner and it arrived as advertised, but it seems that the mainspring is broken.  If I manually put some tension on the barrel, it starts ticking.  As far as I can tell (thanks to the serial number) this is a grade 487 and should need a 4/0 mainspring...so that's on the way.  The case is really interesting as its made of such thin metal that appears to be plated.  The case back has an insert as well which I have not seen before.  Lots of watchmaker marks on there too!!

[grsnovi]

Nice find! Let us see it after you drop in the new spring.

[watchweasol]

Nice watch, Interesting dial.

[Nucejoe]

Question:

This says adjusted, but doesn't disclose how many adjustments !     

 How can we go about finding how many positions this actually is adjusted in,  sure it can be observed on TG  if a runner, so would on documents if available, but Is there any other approach to finding the answer? 

TIA 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

Hello Manx. Interesting watch. What size it looks smallish. The insert, if meaning curved rim around  the inside of the case back. To take up the space around the movement to stop it dancing about and damaging it. Also sometimes a sperate spacer with tabs inside the case, a later idea.

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 3/27/2022 at 10:18 AM, watchweasol said:

Nice watch, Interesting dial.

Same names crop up often ww. Might the one inside the caseback have been pinched by a well known Indian manufacturer? 

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 3/26/2022 at 9:35 PM, Manxcat said:

I picked this Elgin up off eBay, the ruby's caught my eye.  It was sold as a non runner and it arrived as advertised, but it seems that the mainspring is broken.  If I manually put some tension on the barrel, it starts ticking.  As far as I can tell (thanks to the serial number) this is a grade 487 and should need a 4/0 mainspring...so that's on the way.  The case is really interesting as its made of such thin metal that appears to be plated.  The case back has an insert as well which I have not seen before.  Lots of watchmaker marks on there too!!

Ranfft not listing 487. Some Internet is stating 1932 for your serial no.

[watchweasol]

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrIQhJ9gFpi988AaBR3Bwx.;_ylu=Y29sbwMEcG9zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1650127102/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.elginnumbers.com%2f/RK=2/RS=XqrjUmdGG_.jHi87PekGqejJpjE-

this is the elgin site and gives the data for the serial number on the plate.

Date 1932,    Size 4/0s,  Jewels 15/17,  Grade 487, Model 1, Production total 145,000, Hunter case, pendant wind set, case nickle Damaskeening,  going barrel,  adjusted  yes, 3/4 plate

[JohnR725]

You can look at your watch in the pocket watch database found at the first link below. Conveniently though they don't have a parts list like pocket watches do? But that's fine you go the second link and get your Elgin parts Numbers.

Then if you look at the parts list and you'll notice that you get a number and you get a thickness. One number can actually be several different mainsprings you need the thickness to get the right mainspring if you have a choice at all. At one time you had choices today it may be stuck with whatever you get. I snipped out an image to show you what I mean by that that's what was available at one time.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/elgin/33575252

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/

[grsnovi]

@JohnR725 In your above snip from the Elgin mainspring chart, I know what "steel" is as a material but what is the abbreviation "D.P." for? 

@Manxcat As John points out, you may not have a choice but it seems that yesterday I read somewhere that if you do have a choice you may want to replace an old spring with one slightly less powerful since it's likely that all of the rest of the watch is worn as well.

A fellow on a Facebook pocket watch forum suggested that I pick up a copy of the Elgin Materials Catalog. I found a copy and it's on the way. I suspect that it may be the source for some percentage of the material contained in the pocketwatchdatabase.

[JohnR725]

8 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

As John points out, you may not have a choice but it seems that yesterday I read somewhere that if you do have a choice you may want to replace an old spring with one slightly less powerful since it's likely that all of the rest of the watch is worn as well.

There is a prevailing theory that modern mainsprings are stronger for the exact same thickness of a steel mainspring. So the general rule is you would always go with the later spring today. The problem is there a less mainsprings available today.

For instance usually when I'm looking for mainsprings all look at the list of unattached to. It is by no means hundred percent perfect but because me a clue as to whether something's going to exist or not.

12 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

"D.P." for?

Each of the watch companies helmets and an Elgin for instance had their own alloys for hairsprings and mainsprings. So for instance at the link below you'll find dp stands for "Dura-Power", Elgin's 'unbreakable' mainsprings.

http://elginwatches.org/databases/mainspring_info.html

15 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

Elgin Materials Catalog.

Which year you getting?

Mainspring - DennisonChart.pdf Mainsprings security American pocket watch.PDF

[grsnovi]

Thanks John! I figured the Elgin catalogues were year-based. I'm guessing mine is a 1957. Do the newer books go way back for older parts?

[diveboy]

this isn't a factory model from Elgin. its a replacement case offered by jewelers for when the original case had too much wear.

 

The catalogs that I know of

1888

1898

1914

1925/6 (this is the one that caused all the confusion about miss identifying grades and runs, they reclassified grades to simplify part replacements, this new look up tables were carried forward to the 1950 catalog)

1950

supplements that were mailed out from time to time to update the 1950 catalog)

1958 (This is the final catalog release)

supplements that were mailed out from time to time to update the 1958catalog, the last supplement I know of is 1964)

There is also the Elgin Casing book, released around 1958 and updated around 1963/64 (this is the book you use to replace hands, crystals, gaskets, crowns).

 

 

[grsnovi]

@diveboy Didn't see this before I sent my note. I'll be curious to see what's in the Elgin red book that I have on it's way.

Any ideas on finding cases for Elgins that have been stripped?

[diveboy]

sorry for the delay,  no not much of a chance with your model as both the case and dial have been swapped out, so it would be pot luck as to watch model the movement originally came from.

 

[grsnovi]

On 4/21/2022 at 4:20 PM, diveboy said:

The catalogs that I know of

@diveboy, how can you tell which one you have? The one I got has no date inside. The last page of the serial number and grades is page 36 and the last sequence of s/n's is: F937,001 to F999,999 for grade 662.

Handwritten on the price list is: 10-10-49 suggesting that the price list is older than that.

It also has a 20 page insert: Elgin Parts Interchangeability Chart

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, grsnovi said:

how can you tell which one you have?

perhaps a picture of the catalog what does it look like and does it have any pictures of the Elgin parts or is it just purely a book of text?

[grsnovi]

Hi John,

Red textured cover with gold lettering. Ring binding. Pages are just tables of part numbers sorted by grade.

 

[JohnR725]

it looks like the 1950 book to me?

[diveboy]

yeh the early 1950s book, DuraPower gives it away on the cover.

[Manxcat]

That took some time...Mainspring, the mainspring was definitely broken in two...and the 4/0 was a perfect fit...but during reassembly I noticed the plates didn't really want to go back together so I looked closer...and found a broken jewel.  I got to looking a bit more and found another...so I got another movement.  I realize its not worth the work...but I liked it so I wanted to bring it back.  I rebuilt the new movement which had a bad jewel that the old movement had in good shape...a little swaping and I was in business.  Got the entire thing back together and put it on the timegrapher and it was looking GREAT...until I put it upside down at which point it stopped.  Through a little investigation, I noticed that the balance cock jewel was cracked in 4 directions and was also oblong.  At this point, I became a bit frustrated and set it aside for a few months. 

I had another jewel on the old movement...I was not comfortable changing it, so I hit pause...till today.  Today I finally took it out again, pulled the hairspring off of both assembles, pulled the jewels out, examined them and the old movement had a good jewel so I cleaned it, lubed it, and reassembled everything and threw it on the timegrapher!  It was pretty good right out the gate, I did have to speed it up just a smidge and I did check all directions.  Its not perfect...but it never was and never will be.  I am very happy with the results and threw it back in the case which looks pretty much exactly how it did above.

Meanwhile...I have discovered that vintage amp repair can use some watchmaking tools...who knew!!

[grsnovi]

Happy to hear you had a positive outcome with that Elgin.

I'm waiting for a bench key and a 2nd grade 409 movement. The one I have has a nice dial and hands but blowing on the balance doesn't get anything going.

I'll probably open it up this weekend.

The grade 409 is a 7j movement, nothing special. The one I have already is from 1914.

(so, what watch tools are you using on vintage amps? my previous amp building efforts made me realize that handling a soldering pencil wasn't my strong suit. The Victoria in the closet hasn't been powered up in years.)

- Gary

[Manxcat]

Specifically, I was attempting to refurb some VU meters.  They are spring loaded with what looks like a hairspring and they have a jeweled bearing on the top and bottom of the pivot the meter moves on.  To be clear, my attempt was not successful...but I also didn't make it worse!! 

I also have a hobby addiction that is related to a tool addiction...so a few months of playing with receivers resulted in a new oscilloscope, a transistor tester, and a 100watt static load!!  The solder rework station and the Fluke meter...those I have had for years.  The most difficult thing so far was rewiring the tonearm in my Dual automatic record player...those things can make a crazy hum with old wires.  As difficult as that was to refurb, watches are still more challenging.

I have picked up another Elgin that looks like this one and a Robot that seems cut from the same thread! 

The round watch movement is not as jeweled and does not work...probably the mainspring...seems like they are all broken.  The spare movement I bought for this project also had a broken mainspring.  I also messed with a Chinese 2650, a friends son had purchased a inexpensive pocket watch that stopped ticking.  It meant alot to him so I took a look. 

The impulse jewel fell out!!  It was just gone, just a hole left...so I grabbed a balance off an $11 movement and got it ticking again.  He also had an Citizen Eco-Drive that the hands fell off of, easy fix there, and the band was falling apart.

I do try to stay busy.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Manxcat

[grsnovi]

1 hour ago, Manxcat said:

I also have a hobby addiction that is related to a tool addiction...

Don't we all?

I still have a Peterson Strobe Tuner someplace... 

1 hour ago, Manxcat said:

...my attempt was not successful...but I also didn't make it worse!! 

That's the best!