First watch service - Are these jewels toast?

[kibbler]

 

I slowly and carefully (I'm a newb) disassembled my Waltham 1883 that I got with a broken mainspring.  I took tons of pictures, and I kept all the major parts groups together to avoid issues identifying the proper screws.

I got it all the way down to the base plate, and upon inspecting the jewels, it appears that the 4th wheel jewel (top) is in bad shape, and the 3rd wheel jewel (bottom) has a chip also.  Can someone take a look at my photo and confirm?  I haven't cleaned it much yet, besides trying to scrape the jewels with a sharp toothpick to check if it was just debris.

I'm really now sure how to proceed from here.  Would the watch potentially run with the jewels in that condition?  What effect would it have?

I wouldn't even know how to start looking to find replacements for the jewels, if they do in fact need replacing.  Could anyone provide guidance?  I did intend on getting a staking set off of eBay, eventually.

Edited February 16, 2022 by kibbler
specifying which jewel is which

[oldhippy]

Doesn’t it say on the movement or dial about how many jewels the movement has?

Looks like brass bushings, jewels are normally red or pink in colour. I would like to see the other side of the plate that way I should be able to tell if these just push in or are they part of the plate. Brass doesn’t chip are you sure it’s not wear. Whatever they are work will need to be undertaken (1) by replacing or (2) brass bushing so you will need pocket watch Broaches and some sort of staking tool or even a Jewelling Tool.

[KarlvonKoln]

You know, I had to look at this a few times, and zoom way in.  I don't know if it's the lighting or if the jewels are clear and uncolored, but it looks like there are pressed-in jewels there.  If those are jewels though, then yes, they're a mess and will need replacement.  Either way, OH is right, work will need to be done there.

[jdrichard]

The jewel simply needs to be replaced. You need to buy a watch repair book and start reading.

[praezis]

True, both are damaged.
You will find white (clear) sapphire jewels no more (I have a few sizes in stock), but red jewels are available.

Frank

[spectre6000]

He says it's not been cleaned yet, and that's hardly a great photo. How do you guys know it's not just thoroughly oxidized/polymerized oil? Personally, without my stereomicroscope (and I could conceive of a scenario where even that would leave me unsure), I think I'd be hesitant to make any such calls prior to a good cleaning...

OP, give it a good bath, and then get a really good look and/or take some really good photos. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by spectre6000

[kibbler]

6 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Looks like brass bushings, jewels are normally red or pink in colour. I would like to see the other side of the plate that way I should be able to tell if these just push in or are they part of the plate.

 

3 hours ago, KarlvonKoln said:

I don't know if it's the lighting or if the jewels are clear and uncolored, but it looks like there are pressed-in jewels there. 

The jewels are a very pale pink, almost clear.  The golden/brass looking color in the photo is just glare from the lighting as I was trying to get the detail of the defects with my camera.

Here are some pictures that better-show the plate from the front and back

So how do I go about sourcing replacements for the jewels?  I'm assuming I need to press them out, measure with a micrometer, and measure the pivots of the wheels, and order based on that.

I found what I believe is jdrichard's own video on replacing a jewel in what appears to be this same movement, so that is quite helpful

On the other hand, it seems like I'm missing quite a lot of tooling; a jeweling tool set, micrometer (I have a digital caliper), pivot gauges, burnishing tools.  I'm not sure I'm quite ready to dive in so deep.

[jdrichard]

56 minutes ago, kibbler said:

 

The jewels are a very pale pink, almost clear.  The golden/brass looking color in the photo is just glare from the lighting as I was trying to get the detail of the defects with my camera.

Here are some pictures that better-show the plate from the front and back

So how do I go about sourcing replacements for the jewels?  I'm assuming I need to press them out, measure with a micrometer, and measure the pivots of the wheels, and order based on that.

I found what I believe is jdrichard's own video on replacing a jewel in what appears to be this same movement, so that is quite helpful

On the other hand, it seems like I'm missing quite a lot of tooling; a jeweling tool set, micrometer (I have a digital caliper), pivot gauges, burnishing tools.  I'm not sure I'm quite ready to dive in so deep.

Thanks:)

[KarlvonKoln]

10 hours ago, jdrichard said:

The jewel simply needs to be replaced. You need to buy a watch repair book and start reading.

It would be rude to direct a newbie to dive into the deep end.  Just a bit of wading, to test the waters. As J D Richard says, start with a book, and then you will learn which tools to begin getting and how deep is "deep".  I recommend "Practical Watch Repairing" by Donald de Carle.  Excellent for beginners, it is a bit dated in places - but so is the watch you're working upon.

[kibbler]

10 minutes ago, KarlvonKoln said:

It would be rude to direct a newbie to dive into the deep end.  Just a bit of wading, to test the waters. As J D Richard says, start with a book, and then you will learn which tools to begin getting and how deep is "deep".  I recommend "Practical Watch Repairing" by Donald de Carle.  Excellent for beginners, it is a bit dated in places - but so is the watch you're working upon.

Thanks for the book recommendation.

I do think a jewel repair is a bit beyond my experience level right now.  This project was intended to be my first "real" repair on a watch I hoped would work afterward.  I think I will treat it as further practice disassembling, cleaning, lubricating and, reassembling a movement.  If I succeed there, I will set it aside for another day.

I already felt like I over-did it with tool purchases for a new hobby, so it's a bit disappointing I will have to find another project watch.

[jdrichard]

56 minutes ago, KarlvonKoln said:

It would be rude to direct a newbie to dive into the deep end.  Just a bit of wading, to test the waters. As J D Richard says, start with a book, and then you will learn which tools to begin getting and how deep is "deep".  I recommend "Practical Watch Repairing" by Donald de Carle.  Excellent for beginners, it is a bit dated in places - but so is the watch you're working upon.

Or The Watch Repairers Manual

[CharlieD]

Lets not forget that the Watch Repair Channel on YouTube has several videos on the subject of how to replace a jewel.. I used this search and found several: 

  https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=watch+repair+channel+jewel+replacement

Mark's videos are excellent. There are additional resources on the Chronoglide Watchmaking Channel. Try this YouTube search for a four part series on how to replace jewels:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chronoglide+watchmaking+jewel+replacement 

I have seen all of these and bought the tools from eBay. I'm searching for a project watch to try this on as we speak. I am also a newbie, so I'm going through the same process. If you have not taken Mark's courses yet I highly recommend them. I took them all and they really helped me bootstrap my journey into watchmaking. 

By the way, the replacing of a jewel is not going to be high quality work using a staking set. The end shake of the wheel is determined by the position of the jewels above and below it, with accuracy down to 10th's of a mm. As a first timer (like me) it was clear I could not get that position that accurate with a staking set. One of the things about that jeweling set is you can make very small adjustments to the jewel position, and that's critical to a proper repair. 

(Unless there is a trick to doing this with a staking set that I am not aware of.)

Do this at your own pace, you'll get there and have that pride when the basket case you just repaired comes back to life and ticks for the first time. Enjoy the journey!

[spectre6000]

Seriously, what is it about those photos that's causing everyone to immediately jump to not one, but TWO chipped jewels on a movement that OP explicitly states has not been cleaned? I know I have a sub-third world internet connection up here, but pretty sure we're looking at the same photos, and I see nothing that says the jewels are broken that couldn't just as easily say they're caked with old polymerized oil.

[kibbler]

9 minutes ago, spectre6000 said:

Seriously, what is it about those photos that's causing everyone to immediately jump to not one, but TWO chipped jewels on a movement that OP explicitly states has not been cleaned? I know I have a sub-third world internet connection up here, but pretty sure we're looking at the same photos, and I see nothing that says the jewels are broken that couldn't just as easily say they're caked with old polymerized oil.

I should follow up, because I did appreciate your point from before, and I took the time today to clean the plates as best I could in lighter fluid.

The damage is still there, and quite apparent now that the all of the jewels are otherwise very shiny.

[anilv]

If the rest of the watch parts are OK just clean and reinstall. It should work as these watches are quite robust. Even if it doesnt you can put it away for the moment while you get experience on other watches and in the meantime start hunting for a jewelling set.

Anilv

[oldhippy]

15 hours ago, kibbler said:

 

The jewels are a very pale pink, almost clear.  The golden/brass looking color in the photo is just glare from the lighting as I was trying to get the detail of the defects with my camera.

Here are some pictures that better-show the plate from the front and back

So how do I go about sourcing replacements for the jewels?  I'm assuming I need to press them out, measure with a micrometer, and measure the pivots of the wheels, and order based on that.

I found what I believe is jdrichard's own video on replacing a jewel in what appears to be this same movement, so that is quite helpful

On the other hand, it seems like I'm missing quite a lot of tooling; a jeweling tool set, micrometer (I have a digital caliper), pivot gauges, burnishing tools.  I'm not sure I'm quite ready to dive in so deep.

As you progress in watch repairing you will find other tools are a must. You should be able to find jewels at the many watch suppliers, a good place to look is ebay. Lots of old stock including jewels are for sale on there it would pay you to look two or three times a week, you can also pick up old tools as well. It is a good place in which to add stock. These jewels are just press fit, so you could probable get away with just a flat end stake and a light weight hammer that is if you go careful.   

[kibbler]

15 hours ago, anilv said:

If the rest of the watch parts are OK just clean and reinstall. It should work as these watches are quite robust.

I am very pleased to report that to my surprise, the watch came to life upon reinstalling the balance wheel.  That moment is the reason I was drawn to this hobby, so I was very happy with that.  With the new mainspring I installed, it seems to be ticking along very strong, although I don't yet have a way to measure.  I'm going to let it wind down from a full wind once before setting it aside - to see if it continues running, and I'll note how far off it drifts in 24 hours.

10 hours ago, oldhippy said:

As you progress in watch repairing you will find other tools are a must. You should be able to find jewels at the many watch suppliers, a good place to look is ebay. Lots of old stock including jewels are for sale on there it would pay you to look two or three times a week, you can also pick up old tools as well. It is a good place in which to add stock. These jewels are just press fit, so you could probable get away with just a flat end stake and a light weight hammer that is if you go careful.   

Thanks, I will definitely come back to this one at some point after I expand my tool collection.  I am tracking staking set listings on ebay, and I'll keep my eye out for a decent micrometer also.

Based on jdrichard's jewel replacement video, and seeing the size difference between the top- and bottom-side of the jewels, I was under the impression those jewels on this movement were burnished in.  How can I tell for sure if they are friction-fit or burnished?

Edited February 17, 2022 by kibbler
typo

[oldhippy]

Have a look here this explains the different types of jewels.

 https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/reference/jewel-settings

[kibbler]

9 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Have a look here this explains the different types of jewels.

 https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/reference/jewel-settings

Based on that chart, these look burnished/rubbed-in (are those the same thing?) to me.  Will a standard Seitz jewel just slot right in there with a friction fit?  I was under the impression that it would not.

 

*edit* As a side-note. This movement has been running for almost 30 hours, and is now slow by around or just under a minute.  Given that I don't have any sort of time grapher and didn't touch the regulator, I'm going to chalk that up in the "win" column.

Edited February 18, 2022 by kibbler

[dismaldunc]

if it runs I call it a win too!  (I have reassembled a massive score of 2 watches)

[oldhippy]

15 hours ago, kibbler said:

Based on that chart, these look burnished/rubbed-in (are those the same thing?) to me.  Will a standard Seitz jewel just slot right in there with a friction fit?  I was under the impression that it would not.

 

*edit* As a side-note. This movement has been running for almost 30 hours, and is now slow by around or just under a minute.  Given that I don't have any sort of time grapher and didn't touch the regulator, I'm going to chalk that up in the "win" column.

The Seitz is for the press in jewels. There are tools for rubbing in jewels but I don't know if they are still made. I have seen them on ebay so when you see a set try and buy them.