What does this timegrapher trace tell you?

[Woolshire]

High beat error, goofy bottom trace, but reasonable amplitude and timekeeping.

I haven’t checked properly, but I do believe the roller jewel is setting in the middle of the banks. I just C&O’d this one last week. I didn’t find anything wrong besides dirt.

[jdrichard]

1 hour ago, Woolshire said:

High beat error, goofy bottom trace, but reasonable amplitude and timekeeping.

I haven’t checked properly, but I do believe the roller jewel is setting in the middle of the banks. I just C&O’d this one last week. I didn’t find anything wrong besides dirt.

If it were the impulse jewel both tracks would likely have issues. In this case only one trace is off. Exit pallet not smooth. Loose pallet fork jewel perhaps.

 

On 1/27/2022 at 4:22 PM, JohnR725 said:

I suspected that that's where I saw that procedure because I knew I had seen it before.

But a lot of American pocket watches had round holes it really isn't an issue. A lot of American pocket watches have holes that are bigger than I would like to have its still not an issue it's just a pain you put the roller jewel in you put the shellac on you warm it up and then you very carefully get it all in alignment where it's supposed to be it can be done it's not as nice as if you have a hold the exact right size but it can be done you don't need a special tool you just did a little warm shellac and some tweezers and a lot of patience

Then while I said you don't need a special tool I assume that you do know that there is a tool to hold the roller table either where it's on the staff or it's off? I'll get a picture of that just so were all on the same page these I just assume that everyone knew that this tool exists but if you're modern watch repair why would you know such a thing.

Then because they were all in the same lecture I snipped out a few more images of roller jewel things. Even though they don't show a round jewel they did exist at one time.

That are variety of tools used to do the task the one that's labeled figure 12 is the most common one that's the most common tool available. It becomes an interesting procedure of holding the tool putting it in alcohol lamp melting the shellac hopefully not too much then holding on to the tool not touching anything because it's hot and carefully manipulating roller jewel.

Then found another image of what I call the conventional tool the advertising it can also be used to hold pallet forks.

Then I do know that there are other tools out there because I've seen one that holds the roller jewel nice and secure you lay the table on top of it then you keep that up either with the shellac reported after it's warm but it holds the jewel nice and straight get the table exactly where you want and then you go a put it back on the watch as opposed to doing it on the watch where things get really complicated.

 

1 hour ago, Woolshire said:

High beat error, goofy bottom trace, but reasonable amplitude and timekeeping.

I haven’t checked properly, but I do believe the roller jewel is setting in the middle of the banks. I just C&O’d this one last week. I didn’t find anything wrong besides dirt.

 

[Woolshire]

Good point. Likely exit jewel issue. Back apart she comes. Thanks, JD!

[praezis]

7 minutes ago, Woolshire said:

Likely exit jewel issue.

You would be the first who can tell if it is entry or exit jewel 

Frank

[Woolshire]

Since they’re only 3mm apart, I’ll check them both. Of course, could be a chuck of something, bent something, or a dozen things….gotta love it.

[mikepilk]

Or, the movement is not a tight fit in the case, giving a noisy signal. I've seen similar, but when just the movement is mounted on the timegrapher, I see a clean trace.

[Woolshire]

Well, took it apart to have a peek. Turns out both pallet stone faces are “wiped”. In other words, there’s a groove worn in both of them. I couldn’t see it until I used tons of light and a 10x loupe.

I’ve never seen that before. It a 1960’s Gruen 25J auto date, so nothing exotic. The movement plates look new but this poor thing was run hard with no lubrication for a long time…at least that’s my take on it.

[Plato]

8 hours ago, Woolshire said:

Well, took it apart to have a peek. Turns out both pallet stone faces are “wiped”. In other words, there’s a groove worn in both of them. I couldn’t see it until I used tons of light and a 10x loupe.

I’ve never seen that before. It a 1960’s Gruen 25J auto date, so nothing exotic. The movement plates look new but this poor thing was run hard with no lubrication for a long time…at least that’s my take on it.

Are you sure it's not stubborn old oil? The pallet stones are harder than steel so they shouldn't wear down... as is my understanding.

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, Woolshire said:

poor thing was run hard with no lubrication for a long time…at least that’s my take on it.

While Sapphire supposed to be really really hard I have seen where it's been cut? Some more out the University used to be there somebody was talking about improper use of surface treatment? The problem was when you use surface treatment the solvent is extremely volatile or at least used to be it's supposed to be better now. The extremely volatile substance evaporates really fast and because of that it causes a cooling effect like Winfrey on evaporates basically and you get condensation. So I've seen claims that if you use surface treatment incorrectly water will get trapped in her on in the parts will rust. So somebody showed I believe was the roller jewel of the sliced into by the rusty pallet fork but?

It would still be worth taking something hard and scraping on the jewels just to make sure it's not ancient lubrication that is turned to stone.

9 hours ago, Woolshire said:

1960’s Gruen 25J auto date

I don't suppose you can narrow it down and give us an exact model number?

9 hours ago, Woolshire said:

Turns out both pallet stone faces are “wiped”. In other words, there’s a groove worn in both of them. I couldn’t see it until I used tons of light and a 10x loupe.

Minor problem here though if both of them are bad wire we only seeing it on one line?

[spectre6000]

JohnR, your speech to text software did not pan out very well in that post in the first paragraph. Can not follow.

You should probably also check the escape wheel teeth. If those two components have been working together for a while, the escape wheel will have suffered worse than the pallet jewels.

Meanwhile, it's not just the steel on sapphire, it's the steel on sapphire plus whatever contaminants get in there. Silica being the most likely suspect to my mind, which is much harder than steel as well. I'm reminded of automotive engines. Specifically performance oriented engines. The bearings in your passenger car will last hundreds of thousands of miles, but a performance engine will rarely last 50k. The way most people build them, that comes down to air filtration. To get more air, they remove the restrictive filters (or use "gravel catchers" that just keep out the big stuff). The byproduct of this is that silica dust suspended in the air by the tires of other cars gets in, eats up the rings/cylinder walls, gets in the oil and subsequently chews up bearings. Rebuild time. Same deal. The different hardnesses and lubrications SHOULD keep everything copacetic, but external contaminants find a way.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

your speech to text software did not pan out very well in that post in the first paragraph. Can not follow.

Yes my dictation software is temperamental basically it means from time to time I have to stare at the screen and question what the heck is it thinking and if I don't it gets mad at me and decides to just do whatever it feels like for words and it's really hard to read.

Destruction of escapement's? The surface treatment solution applied in the field to prevent lubrication from spreading has been rumored to cause steel components to rust if not applied properly. They used to be a website the person had pictures of the roller jewel and the Pallet fork both destroyed and covered with a light coating of rust. that is the possibility of one source of the problem

one of my acquaintances worked for Swatch group and anything resembling escapement issues they just replace both the escape wheel and the pallet fork. From our discussion it seemed like they were doing a lot of?

If you get into clock repair the steel pallets will usually get cut because particles of bad stuff in the air that we breathe embed themselves into the brass and they will slowly sliced through the steel pallets. All you need is the right grinding compound and a heck of a lot of time.

 

 

[Woolshire]

I believe it is a Gruen 710. Pretty positive each stone had grooves. One had a tiny pit, too. That might explain the timegrapher trace. I didn’t see anything on the escape wheel teeth. 
it is interesting that the watch keeps excellent time on my wrist and a visual of the balance would tell me the watch is like new. I guess that’s why we have machines to tell us what’s really going on!

Thanks to everyone for the replies and thoughts on this. I might look for a parts movement and change out the escapement. That will fix the beat error but then it probably won’t keep time.