Please help identify this pcoket watch

[Dmitry]

Hello, picked up this pocket watch at an auctoin today and I have no idea what it is. Need to replace the balance staff, but struggling with what I am looking at. Can it be a waltham? Plenty of jewels, but lower serial number. Balance cock looks like from a wlatham, keyless as well.

Thank you for any insights.

[KarlvonKoln]

I don't think it's a Waltham.  It doesn't quite have an American look to it.  But I am pretty sure it's one of the Swiss ebauche companies.  Likely it is Fontainmelon (FHF) or maybe A. Schild.  I'm posting a link.  There are some movements on that page that are very similar to yours, stylistically, even if they do not match exactly.  Others on this forum may be able to give a more experienced opinion.

https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/movements.php

[JohnR725]

12 hours ago, Dmitry said:

Can it be a waltham?

No it's definitely not a  Waltham at least not a US version. You can tell because of the type of studs screw for the hairspring.

Nice picture the backside that's helpful but I don't suppose we have a diameter?

4 hours ago, KarlvonKoln said:

But I am pretty sure it's one of the Swiss ebauche companies. 

Yes I agree it definitely looks Swiss.

Interesting word found on the balance bridge isn't it?

 

[KarlvonKoln]

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

 

Interesting word found on the balance bridge isn't it?

 

Yeah, saw that too.  American pocket watches hardly ever used "Avance" in place of "Fast" on their exports.  Heck, it's a chore to get some of my fellows to see the value in learning a second language even in this modern age. 

I used to criticize my mother's awful Bavarian accent (she learned the rest of her German in the states) but at least she spoke more than one language.   

[Dmitry]

The diameter of the movement is 42.62mm, there was a large spacing ring around it, probably to match a specific case.

My waltham idea came from the swan's neck regulator I have seen on a couple of Walthams in the past. 

I have missed the "avance", but can it be attributed to a swiss movement in all cases? German manufacturers don't typically spell out "Forwaerts", or "Schneller", do they?

[Randy55]

Interesting that the word "Avance" means "Advance" in Spanish. No ebauche markings, FHF, etc., really makes this a bit of a puzzle.

And at 42.62mm..it's between a 16 and 18 American size

And 42.68 is a Swiss 19 ligne....

Edited December 7, 2021 by Randy55

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, Randy55 said:

Interesting that the word "Avance" means "Advance" in Spanish.

Usually on the earlier Swiss watches they would use French or just the letters like A & R. That's why the word was interesting because it's only one word they don't have both of them and it wasn't the usual spelling for French word.

 

[oldhippy]

Nothing in the Bestfit book, or the old   Flume book I have.  I think it is a longines but what cal I do not know. 

[praezis]

9 hours ago, Dmitry said:

German manufacturers don't typically spell out "Forwaerts", or "Schneller", do they?

They wrote Vor / Nach (fast / slow) :-)

[WatchMaker]

Bit of a mystery this one. I've looked around and can't find a match either.

The regulator might be an enhancement on an original movement. I say this because it looks like there is a marking it is obscuring; probably 'Retard' given the discussion above.

My advice @Dmitrywould be to dismantle and see if there are any clues revealed. There may be some marking obscured e.g. on the reverse of a bridge.

Since your main aim is actually to get a replacement balance staff then you may have to do that without knowing the movement by taking relevant measurements and using a resource like https://www.balancestaffs.com/ to see if you can find a staff that would fit.

[Dmitry]

I had a closer look under magnification, and underneath the balance cock, I see embossed 585. The three last digits of the serial 80585 on the main plate. Moreover, there is 585 scribbled on the balance wheel itself. Does 585 have any significance here since someone tried so hard to mark it there?

[jdm]

18 minutes ago, Dmitry said:

Does 585 have any significance here since someone tried so hard to mark it there?

It was normal during production to mark parts that had to go together on a given piece, because these had been selected or adjusted to be a perfect fit, giving better performances. In this case the marking is part of the serial number.

[MRMULLENIX]

Go to Google and put in 585 pocket watch and see I you find your among  the images the 585 is probably the cal of the movent

[Dmitry]

I still have not abandoned hope to restore this beauty and continued my search. Based on what I was able to look up for balance staff measurements (1063?) , it looks like the only fitting movement is FHF429, which would be in line with the earlier idea from Randy55. The bridges look very similar.

Does anyone have any information on the 429 caliber?

I am awaiting deliver of the staff now, but the roller is cracked, so I need to source that as well.

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, Dmitry said:

Based on what I was able to look up for balance staff measurements (1063?)

Just to be clear here because I didn't see you listing your dimensions of the staff anywhere? You measured your staff you looked on the site and this staff exactly is the same as your staff or is it reasonably close? If it's reasonably close but not exactly the same what are the dimensions of your staff?

 

[Dmitry]

I was only able to measure K, J and G. A and B are unknown as the balance staff I have is broken beyond humane. All three of these are exactly the same and the length appears valid as the staff seems very long. My strategy is to try other staffs if this one does not pan out. Not sure if there is a better alternative, slow and steady wins the race.

[JohnR725]

One of the reasons I asked for the dimensions is that the Ronda Staffs are listed in a book by both the watch caliber and the size and I suspect if we look there's probably a lot of other staffs in a similar size category.

[Dmitry]

It only took me three different staff orders to figure out that the one I have is "FHF 19' ancre à sav."

I cannot find any information anywhere on this specific movement, let alone parts:( 

Balance assembly would be ideal, although I am missing the roller table to get this going.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

[Dmitry]

I have now been through 4 staffs and none worked out for me. 

Does anyone have any information on FHF calibers?

I am pretty sure ti is one of the FHF H4.3 hunters, but which of 1 to 14 designations?

Any information is highly appreciated.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?11&ranfft&0&2uswk&FHF_009_19H4.3_sav