Rotary Watch Movement ID and help please.

[Moose]

I am looking at a Rotary Watch, pretty identical to the one on the photo. I am guessing it is some sort of Chinese skeletonised movement, but there are no marks visible on the movement.  The Rotary Case ID for the watch is GS02375/01.  The movement seems odd initially as whilst it has three sundials, only the 24 hour hand at 6 0'clock seems to be synchronised with the movement. the day (at 9) and date (at 3) seem only to be set by the two pushers. Is this normal?

I would appreciate a hint on which movement it is please.

The watch intermittently stops when worn, but the sweep seconds hand is nearly always in the same position when it stops (pointing at about 20 past) so I am suspecting some damage or misalignment in the works. (I can't see the hands blocking each other, or anything on the dial to stop it. Funnily enough it does not seem to stop when left dial up and not worn. The balance amplitude is also a very low at around 170-180

Still very much an amateur when it comes to watches, so any hints and tips welcome.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Moose

[KarlvonKoln]

Always be open to searching through the wheel train for the offending wheel or pinion, or sometimes a slightly bent pivot, or a miniscule clump of dirt.  There are a few different things it could be.  But...the times I've had a watch where the second hand sometimes stopped, in the exact same place, both times it was because the second hand was bent slightly upwards, and was rubbing on the inner surface of the crystal.  So now, I always check that first, before I go starting a full scale strip-down.  It saved me extra work each time.  With yours, I would say explore the possibility that, when left dial-up, there may be enough looseness or play between movement and case that gravity pulls it slightly away from that crystal and the second hand has just enough clearance to turn freely.

Edited August 7, 2021 by KarlvonKoln
edited for clarity

[Moose]

2 minutes ago, KarlvonKoln said:

... But...the times I've had a watch where the second hand sometimes stopped, in the exact same place, both times it was because the second hand was bent slightly upwards, and was rubbing on the inner surface of the crystal.  So now, I always check that first, before I go starting a full scale strip-down.  It saved me extra work each time.  

Always a good tip. I'll be sure to check.

[Moose]

Well, just had a look at the case and the fit in the case. The hands were a little less than set accurately and there was a possibility of the seconds hand rubbing, but after a reset and refit, it still happens occasionally. Most noticeable when its worn and winder down. More likely its just that when I am moving my arm normally, its enough to keep it going. But if I stand for a while with my hand motionless, it stops. in the same place each time.

It will need a strip and inspection, but I am loath to attempt it just yet, rather keep trying to find an assembly diagram or something for the movement.

[clockboy]

I repaired a similar Rotary as this last year and after some research the movement was made by Seiko. I found this out after trying to find a replacement shock spring. The Seiko shock springs are not available so I had to modify an existing shock spring. 

[Moose]

21 minutes ago, clockboy said:

I repaired a similar Rotary as this last year and after some research the movement was made by Seiko. I found this out after trying to find a replacement shock spring. The Seiko shock springs are not available so I had to modify an existing shock spring. 

After looking at the movement, I would agree with Japan and maybe Seiko derived/supplied. It seems to use a similar "Magic Wind" system to the movements in the Seiko 5 series etc.

Still looking online for some indications as to whether a diagram is available, but no luck yet.

I also wonder if the movement could be Miyota, as some other of Rotary models use Miyota skeletonised calibers? I wonder if there is a Miyota calibre reference anywhere?

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Moose
Clarity

[Moose]

Additional observation (whilst still looking online for a movement diagram).

When not worn and left on the bench, winder down, it will stop at the same place on the seconds sweep. It does not seem to do this when left in any other orientation...

Other than needing a service, is this suggestive of anything?

Edited August 7, 2021 by Moose
clarification

[jdm]

On 8/7/2021 at 5:19 PM, Moose said:

After looking at the movement, I would agree with Japan and maybe Seiko derived/supplied.

These are cheap Chinese movement's, and have nothing to do with Japan or Seiko except for using an unlicensed copy of the magic lever system.

They are made to a low standards, and break easily either if left alone or during repair attempts. No parts or documentation are available, but the complete movement or a size compatible is often available for little money on Cousins UK or AliExpress.

 

On 8/7/2021 at 5:19 PM, Moose said:

It seems to use a similar "Magic Wind" system to the movements in the Seiko 5 series etc.

Forgive the nitpick but the magic lever is almost ubiquitous on Seiko calibers, e.g., it's also on the 8L35 mov.t found on watches costing in excess of €4,000.

 

Quote

I wonder if there is a Miyota calibre reference anywhere?

On the Miyota website.

[Moose]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

These are cheap Chinese movement's, and have nothing to do with Japan or Seiko except for using an unlicensed copy of the magic lever system.

They are made to a low standards, and break easily both if left alone or during repair attempts. No parts or documentation are available, but the complete movement or a size compatible is often available for little money on Cousins UK or AliExpress.

 

Forgive the nitpick but the magic lever is almost ubiquitous on Seiko calibers, e.g., it's also on the 8L35 mov.t found on watches costing in excess of €4,000.

 

On the Miyota website.

Thanks for all your help.

[JohnR725]

On 8/7/2021 at 7:58 AM, clockboy said:

I repaired a similar Rotary as this last year and after some research the movement was made by Seiko

Seiko over the years is made a heck of a lot of movements I don't suppose it model number so we could narrow down what were looking for?

4 hours ago, jdm said:

These are cheap Chinese movement's

just in case it's not a Seiko and it's a Chinese here's a link to someone that has movements may be can find something similar would help to narrow it down

https://www.startimesupply.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=8749186c6e2d9518a4b03d8755d261d9&Screen=CTGY_M&Store_Code=1&Category_Code=2Move_Manu_Chinese_Movements&offset=0

On 8/7/2021 at 5:04 AM, Moose said:

The balance amplitude is also a very low at around 170-180

is that by visual observation or with a timing machine? It be really nice to see timing machine results like a picture of what it's doing?

On 8/7/2021 at 8:59 AM, Moose said:

When not worn and left on the bench, winder down, it will stop at the same place on the seconds sweep. It does not seem to do this when left in any other orientation...

when left on the bench how long are we talking about here?

[Moose]

I have now taken off the automatic winding plate for a good look see so far, and there is not one distinguishing mark anywhere. I guess I am going to have to scour movement pics to see what I can turn up.

The balance amplitude was observed on a timegrapher. I timed it dial up and dial down to make sure the balance was reasonably mounted and I could easily get the beat error to around 0.5 - 0.7 and a rate of around 9 secs per day. But it is a fairly ordinary movement so I don’t expect it will hold it that well. Probably as good as any other cheap auto anyway.

As to stopping, I left it overnight last night for around 12 hours and it kept time as well as the timegrapher indicated, but within 30 seconds it would stop when placed winder down. Sweep seconds hand Always in the same place. I tried all other positions and it was OK. Just winder down.

I took it out the case to remove any interference from the case, still the same.

Also took off the hands to see if they were causing issues, ditto. Still the same. I was sort of expecting it to be a damaged tooth on the fourth wheel, as it always stops in the same place, but I can’t see any damage under a loupe.

So all I am left with, is taking the train wheels out and examine them for damage. That’s as far as I got tonight. All the wheels are OK, teeth and splines all fine. Pivots all look good. Balance looks good, escape wheel and lever also looks good. Which is sort of what I expected as it keeps good time when it is running. Can’t see any random debris which might get in the way, nada, as yet.

Bit of a poser though.

[jdm]

3 hours ago, Moose said:

 there is not one distinguishing mark anywhere.

Which is normal, as Cousins UK mentions in their dedicated department:
Chinese movements are not marked with calibre numbers. 

Actually in the past the City/factory three letters identifier was stamped. Anyway, your is the one below. HK stand for Hangzhou.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/skeleton-other-makes?code=2196GM

 

Quote

Probably as good as any other cheap auto anyway.

I don't think so. The only "cheap" automatics one can buy are either Seiko, Citizen, or something that has their movements inside. And they are a lot better than the Chinese.

[Moose]

8 hours ago, jdm said:

Which is normal, as Cousins UK mentions in their dedicated department:
Chinese movements are not marked with calibre numbers. 

Actually in the past the City/factory three letters identifier was stamped. Anyway, your is the one below. HK stand for Hangzhou.

Many thanks for the link. I may need that as another look this morning did not show anything up. I’m running everything through the parts washer and will have another closer look during reassembly, to see if anything comes up.

[clockboy]

The answer is really to find a brave watchmaker who is willing to try and fix/service the movement. The alternative is to remove the movement and take measurements and see if a replacement can be purchased. Cousins supply skeleton watch movements various such as this: 

https://www.cousinsuk.com/search?SearchTerm=2650ssm

I think Seiko make and sell movements to companies such as Rotary but without any specific caliber identification. I can not remember where I found this info from but Cousins contacted Seiko on my behalf about supplying a shock spring and the reply was they do not supply this part to the trade. 

[jdm]

 

1 hour ago, Moose said:

I may need that as another look this morning did not show anything up. 

Tried my link and it's fine. Or check the screenshot

 

57 minutes ago, clockboy said:

I think Seiko make and sell movements to companies such as Rotary but without any specific caliber identification.

It's not so. Seiko sells their movement to OEM or anyone else under the SII brand name: https://www.timemodule.com/en/index.php

For mechanical movements the brand and type is always stamped on the winding weight, which of course can be replaced or re-worked by the customer, for quartz modules it's on the top bridge or cover.

 

57 minutes ago, clockboy said:

I can not remember where I found this info from but Cousins contacted Seiko on my behalf about supplying a shock spring and the reply was they do not supply this part to the trade. 

That does not sound correct. The above said SII mov.ts are identical to their Seiko counterparts except for the marking or other minimal details. That includes the shock springs, which are in fact orderable from Cousins. Below the most popular type ever, it's used on Seiko 7S/4R/6R, SII NH, and maybe others.

Interestingly, I remember to have ordered these years ago, and the price was for Q.ty of five, not one.

[clockboy]

That’s strange because Seiko did not deny it was their movement it just said it would not supply the part required. The shock spring Seiko now use looks very similar to the KIF Trior but it is not. I modified an existing shock spring I found in my stash.
Anyway what the make of the movement is now not the issue it’s now how to fix the movement or find a replacement.

OK found my original post see below.
 

“I recently put up a post about a Rotary watch that needed a new shock spring. Just a heads up it looks like the latest caliber of Rotary watches have Seiko movements fitted. The error I made was I thought the springs were KIF Trior BUT they are not although they look very similar they are a unique spring for Seiko's. Spot the difference see pics attached. I have found one from a donor movement.”

 

     
 

    
 

     
 

     
 

 

[jdm]

33 minutes ago, clockboy said:

That’s strange because Seiko did not deny it was their movement it just said it would not supply the part required.

Do you happen do have a picture?

 

33 minutes ago, clockboy said:

The shock spring Seiko now use looks very similar to the diashock but it is not.

What do you mean "now use"? The part I have highlighted above is the current Diashock spring, fitted to all the models mentioned above.

 

33 minutes ago, clockboy said:

Anyway what the make of the movement is now not the issue it’s now how to fix the movement or find a replacement.

The exact replacement from Cousins is indicated in my previous post.

[clockboy]

58 minutes ago, jdm said:

Do you happen do have a picture?

 

What do you mean "now use"? The part I have highlighted above is the current Diashock spring, fitted to all the models mentioned above.

 

The exact replacement from Cousins is indicated in my previous post.

Yes it looks like Cousins now supply but in 2019 they did not. Here are the various shock springs used by Seiko. The one I required was the top right. 
PS I do not have a pic of the original movement I was working on. PPS why do you require a pic.

 

[jdm]

49 minutes ago, clockboy said:

The one I required was the top right. 
PS I do not have a pic of the original movement I was working on. PPS why do you require a pic.

Because none of the mov.ts that are in your picture are sold by Seiko to third parties under the mentioned SII brand, including the top right with the eccentric regulator.

They are either from vintage calibers, or from the high and upper Seiko segment. In particular, the one on bottom right is the 7R14 found on Credor watches which can cost €50,000, so very far from the ones which one can find in Rotary watches.
If you had asked for a Grand Seiko part it's no surprise that you have been told that these are not sold, as service and repair on these piece happens only by giving the piece to an official Seiko service center which in turn ships it to Japan for the work to be done. 

At the same time the Chinese produce a variety of movements which shock spring closely resemble much more expensive watches of all brands, but are not really compatible with these either. In these cases one might try his luck going with the Cosuins assortment below

 

So I believe the movement which you had repaired was not a Seiko or SII in first place. 

 

[Moose]

These are are of the movement. I do believe it is the same as the one referenced in JDM's link.

Although not shown, the shock spring is 'similar' to the one clockboy indicated (top right), but I'm as sure as I can be that my movement is not Japanese.

These were taken before a complete strip, so is still has the calendar plate and works fitted.

After cleaning and re-inspection, I think the cause of the problem may have presented itself. One of the jewels in the main plate is cracked and a piece missing. From the flat side of the jewel, it looks OK and is complete, but looking from the oil-sink side, it is cracked and a small bit missing - from one side tellingly - probably fully dislodged during washing. Likely as not it was maybe just enough to stop the movement when tilted to that side of the jewel.

In the picture with the winder at 3, the offending jewel is at the one o clock position to the centre wheel. And the side of the jewel that is missing is the side that is towards the winder. Maybe more than circumstantial...

I simply don't have the tools to replace jewels, and for the worth of the movement I don't think it warrants it. So if the owner wants it repaired, most likely is more cost effective to replace the movement.

I'm not in this for the money, only as a hobbyist, so no commercial interests are pressing.

[Klassiker]

I had one of these in an extremely fake "Patek Philippe" Ref 39701W. They seem to be quite common, so looking out for a cheap one for sale with the right orientation of calendar functions on Ebay or the like might be your best bet. As I remember, it was a fiddly beast to get the calendar functions back together, and the stem was so badly worn I had to make a replacement, which gives an indication of the quality of materials. Surely budget Chinese and not Seiko.

Here is a close-up of the shock spring:

[jdm]

21 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

They seem to be quite common, so looking out for a cheap one for sale with the right orientation of calendar functions on Ebay or the like might be your best bet.

I have posted a link to the exact replacement (Hongzhou 2196) earlier in this topic. I have found that Cousins UK has a fair price on these mov.ts, which when sporting extreme piercing and "complications" are not exactly cheap anywhere.

Recently a Australian friend of mine asked if I could help with his wife "Laurens" - as if that was a know brand.
It has another variety of skeleton, cheaper than the OP. I tried to talk him out of throwing good money after bad but never argue whena lady "just love" her watch, so he ended getting a replacement from Cousins. I hope that will work for her as well.

[clockboy]

2 hours ago, jdm said:

Because none of the mov.ts that are in your picture are sold by Seiko to third parties under the mentioned SII brand, including the top right with the eccentric regulator.

They are either from vintage calibers, or from the high and upper Seiko segment. In particular, the one on bottom right is the 7R14 found on Credor watches which can cost €50,000, so very far from the ones which one can find in Rotary watches.
If you had asked for a Grand Seiko part it's no surprise that you have been told that these are not sold, as service and repair on these piece happens only by giving the piece to an official Seiko service center which in turn ships it to Japan for the work to be done. 

At the same time the Chinese produce a variety of movements which shock spring closely resemble much more expensive watches of all brands, but are not really compatible with these either. In these cases one might try his luck going with the Cosuins assortment below

 

So I believe the movement which you had repaired was not a Seiko or SII in first place. 

 

Sorry JDM but the movement was a Seiko it’s a pity I did not take a pic to prove to you I am not mistaken. See the reply I received by cousins.
The shock spring I required then is now supplied by cousins, perhaps the enquiry I made prompted Seiko to supply.

Date 20/1/20

 

Dear Mr Derek XXXX,

I have heard back from Seiko who have stated that the parts and information for this calibre are restricted.

I am sorry i could not be more helpful on this occasion.

Kind regards,

Sam Cousins

Cousins Management Team

 

[jdm]

29 minutes ago, clockboy said:

Sorry JDM but the movement was a Seiko it’s a pity I did not take a pic to prove to you I am not mistaken.

No Derek, it was not, I am 100% sure. You can look and search (on the link posted above) all the mov.ts that Seiko (SII) sells to Rotary and any other maker, and you will never find one with a shock spring like the one you asked Cousins about.

29 minutes ago, clockboy said:

See the reply I received by cousins.
The shock spring I required then is now supplied by cousins, perhaps the enquiry I made prompted Seiko to supply.

Date 20/1/20

 

Dear Mr Derek XXXX,

I have heard back from Seiko who have stated that the parts and information for this calibre are restricted.

As I have explained above. You have asked Cousins to supply parts for a Grand Seiko (not Seiko).These are watches selling for easily €5,000 or much more new, and all parts and documentation are restricted.

If you can still obtain a picture of that mov.t, I will try my best to identify the Chinese maker and model, as I did in this occasion.

[Klassiker]

@Moose's movement is definitely the HZ2196 Gold as identified by @jdm. It may well be "derived" from something made by Seiko, but it wasn't made by them.

I also just found out that the stem is available as a spare part, so all that time I spent making a replacement was  unnecessary (but fun).