Movement identification

[Bonzer]

Please could someone help me identify this movement as I need a donor movement for some parts to fix this one.

The only stamps on the movement are 39306 and the number 56. It's a cylinder escapement and possibly French.

The diameter of the movement is about 30.3mm

Thanks!

[watchweasol]

Probably the best way to identify it would be Via thebestfit books, By the keyless work.   OH put some links on the system a while ago for them. Look up via the search option   keyword mediafire should find them.

[Bonzer]

I think I already have the BestFit scans. Just never worked out how to use them 

Thanks

[oldhippy]

It's a Swizz five bar movement. 

[Nucejoe]

I see its missing all parts of winding wheel, will you show the keyless? 

[Bonzer]

19 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

I see its missing all parts of winding wheel, will you show the keyless? 

I have the winding wheel - I had already taken it off as the crown wheel screw was missing. See attached for keyless(Sorry about the pic - the movement was still in the case when I took this a few days ago)

[Nucejoe]

Everything specially shape of gear bridge looks very familiar. 

Let me look through my bag of tricks.

Is a piece of screw to winding wheel left in its hole? 

I am going by just the looks of it all, have no idea what movement it is.

 

[oldhippy]

This might sound as if I’m contradicting myself there must be millions of these movements about but finding interchangeable parts doesn’t happen, they look the same but there is always something wrong.

I don't know the size of the movement but most were Ladies dress watches or known as fob watches worn around the waist on a chain with useful things such as small scissors and keys many have very decorative dials. 

Here are two examples.  

[Bonzer]

8 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Is a piece of screw to winding wheel left in its hole? 

Yes, the screw head had sheared off, no doubt someone had forgotten it was left threaded. I have the wheel, it's the screw, cannon pinion and barrel Arbor I need to make it work.

The case looks very much like the pictures posted above. In fact, the chain is identical, including the key thing ( what this that for?)

[JohnR725]

11 hours ago, Bonzer said:

I think I already have the BestFit scans. Just never worked out how to use them 

To use the bestfit book to find a unknown watch You need to know the size of the movement in lignes. Looks like an odd size it's between 14 and 15. Then in the bestfit book you go to the fingerprint pages and see if any of the setting parts resemble the setting parts you have. But there is a minor problem?

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

This might sound as if I’m contradicting myself there must be millions of these movements about but finding interchangeable parts doesn’t happen, they look the same but there is always something wrong.

The bestfit book was easier than I thought because?  As because your watch is an odd size and they don't have many watches in that size category.

The other problem with the bestfit book is it's really aimed at newer watches lever escapement. Also watches that were made in quantity and watches that had spare parts available. But just because I have another book from the 50s and I didn't see it there either in fact in that book instead of having a black-and-white fingerprint system they actually have the backside of the dial side of the movement and I didn't see any cylinder watches.

 

24 minutes ago, Bonzer said:

screw, cannon pinion and barrel Arbor

Screw may not be an issue if you can find assortment of miscellaneous screws. As something that everyone at some point in time has to do is look through the miscellaneous screws to find something that's missing broken or just an issue.

Then I'm curious about the cannon pinion and barrel Arbor Why do those need to be replaced?

[Bonzer]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Then I'm curious about the cannon pinion and barrel Arbor Why do those need to be replaced?

In the case of the arbor, the hook has worn away and won't engage with the spring.

In the case of the cannon pinion, that was my fault. I struggled to remove it from the centre wheel shaft and used too much force to lever it - and broke a leaf on the pinion  Another lesson learned stupidly.

In fact, the pinion is still stuck. I understand it's a tapered shaft but I cannot even knock it out by placing the centre wheel bridge over a staking block.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Bonzer

[JohnR725]

2 minutes ago, Bonzer said:

In the case of the cannon pinion, that was my fault. I struggled to remove it from the centre wheel shaft and used too much force to lever it

Sometimes with these older watches the Canon pinion doesn't quite go on the way you think. It's hard to tell for your pictures but a lot of these there is a center pin. The Canon pinion goes on the pin super tight and the friction is the pin going through the hollow center wheel.

4 minutes ago, Bonzer said:

arbor, the hook has worn away and won't engage with the spring.

Usually the armor doesn't wear out it's usually the barrel? But if it really is the arbor there is a procedure to fix that.

 

 

[Bonzer]

8 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

The Canon pinion goes on the pin super tight and the friction is the pin going through the hollow center wheel.

I would love to know how to remove it then. Maybe by heating it? I can't get the bridge off until the cannon pinion is removed as the centre shaft has a rounded end.. a bit like a rivet.

 

10 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

But if it really is the arbor there is a procedure to fix that.

I'd like to now how to repair it although I suspect I don't have the tools to do it at the moment. 

[oldhippy]

You tap the center pin out with a tiny hammer. 

[JohnR725]

8 minutes ago, Bonzer said:

Maybe by heating it

If you can heat the entire watch up with a torch of the right temperature you can melt all the brass away and separate it from the steel it's a really messy procedure and I definitely would not recommend doing it.

I am interpreting from your question that the Canon pinion is still in place correct?

Then I can see I wasn't quite quick enough with an answer somebody's beat me to it.

In the picture I've attached you can see the pin sticking up above the canon pinion. Ideally a staking set should be used with a hollow punch on the other side to support plate and allow the pin to drop out. In the absence of that hold it in your hand and slight tap will usually dislodge the pin.

 

 

[Bonzer]

13 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

 Ideally a staking set should be used with a hollow punch on the other side to support plate and allow the pin to drop out. In the absence of that hold it in your hand and slight tap will usually dislodge the pin.

It won't budge. I haven't got a staking set but I've tried resting the bridge on a piece of metal with a hole (to accept the back of the centre pin) and then tapped the protruding pin as you show in the photo and even if I get progressively harder, the pin will not move. I think it did initially move a bit as the pin is protruding out the back of the bridge slightly more than it was originally but it won't move any more.

When I said heating, I was thinking more of a soldering iron tip on the cannon pinion?

Edited March 22, 2021 by Bonzer

[JohnR725]

Just because I want to make 100% sure can you give us a picture of the backside with the part that's protruding out a little bit.

[Bonzer]

Here you go, a view from both sides...

[oldhippy]

Drop some oil on it and leave for a few hours then try. I can assure you these center pins just tap out. 

[Bonzer]

5 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Drop some oil on it and leave for a few hours then try. I can assure you these center pins just tap out. 

Just some 9010 or something similar?

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Bonzer said:

Just some 9010 or something similar?

This would work its expensive and not ideal. Plus you use a pretty good quantity. They make penetrating oil it should be found in your local hardware or store automotive store. They put it on a rusty bolts and things anytime you have a rust situation where it's holding something and it's considerably cheaper than your 9010. But in the absence of that any light weight oil just to see if he can free up the issue you're having. Because usually a quick whack and the pin is free and can be pulled out from the other side.

Then just because I wanted 100% confirmation I was hoping for a better side view picture. In other words more to the side. But I enhanced what you have and it's definitely what we think it is. Usually the giveaway on these is the pins sticks out the front side and if you look carefully on the back side you can see the little crack where the head is on top of the tube. Kinda like a rounded head nail which is your clue that it's a separate pin. Then of course it's the date that's the giveaway the older watches are going to have this anyway.

 

[oldhippy]

Any oil will do.

[JohnR725]

49 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Any oil will do.

Actually any oil that you happen to have handy including automotive oil will work. But penetrating oil or special oils for removing screws will come in handy someday in the future. At work we have something in a syringe that's labeled for removing or loosening or something screws and it does work really well for screws that are frozen in place.

[Bonzer]

39 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Actually any oil that you happen to have handy including automotive oil will work. But penetrating oil or special oils for removing screws will come in handy someday in the future. At work we have something in a syringe that's labeled for removing or loosening or something screws and it does work really well for screws that are frozen in place.

Thanks John and oldhippy, I've left it to soak in some light machine oil that I have, rather than waste my 9010 $$$

John, please can you explain how the barrel arbor hook might be fixed? 

[JohnR725]

13 hours ago, Bonzer said:

John, please can you explain how the barrel arbor hook might be fixed? 

I'm attaching a PDF that has a small section and an image from another book which basically suggest the same thing. Then in the book is also a comment made about you might build to touch up the hook with the file if it's not too badly damaged.

barrel arbor repair BENCH PRACTICES by Fried.pdf