First mod not going well

[MartinOcando]

I believe that I have damaged my watch. I'm trying to replace hands on my Loreo Sub homage watch. It uses a Seagull ST16. So far I've accomplished the following:

• Opened case
• Put movement at 12 both hands
• Removed crown
• Removed movement from case
• Put crown back in, although it was really hard to do
• Removed hands
• Replaced hour and minute hands, but seconds hand is not fitting in. If I push it too much it bends, so I have to straighten it back.
• Can't seem to be able to remove the crown. Is stuck at the hacking position and it doesn't push back in, and I can't remove it

I've been struggling for an hour or so, and I think I'm not going anywhere. I'm already looking for replacement movements in Aliexpress.

Any ideas what I did wrong?

[MartinOcando]

Crown is out, and movement is back alive, so there might be some life in it yet. Now I need some advice on putting the crown back in, and how to fit the seconds hand.

[VWatchie]

To begin with I would try to replace and remove the original seconds hand. If it works without problem your new seconds hand doesn't fit.

[MartinOcando]

3 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

To begin with I would try to replace and remove the original seconds hand. If it works without problem your new seconds hand doesn't fit.

Tried it already. Same behavior

[VWatchie]

On 10/3/2020 at 11:20 PM, MartinOcando said:

Now I need some advice on putting the crown back in

Push the setting lever button while gently rotating the crown back and forth while pushing the stem into the movement so that the square part of the stem fits into the square hole of the sliding pinion (clutch wheel).

Edited October 5, 2020 by VWatchie
Tried to express myself more clearly

[VWatchie]

8 minutes ago, MartinOcando said:

Tried it already. Same behavior

That's more than funny... Any damage to the fourth wheel pivot (the side where the seconds hand sit)? Are you sure you're getting the hole on the hand straight on to the pivot?

[MartinOcando]

Just now, VWatchie said:

That's more than funny... Any damage to the fourth wheel pivot (the side where the seconds hand sit)? Are you sure you're getting the hole on the hand straight on to the pivot?

Looking closely by the side, I can see that the seconds hand go all the way into the hole, but the hole is too wide. It seems like there is some material missing inside the pivot hole.

[MartinOcando]

Never mind. I think I'll never try this again.

Trying to put the crown in, my hand slipped, I hit the dial, and took away one of the markers. I also broke the stem. So I should have heard the advice of some youtubers that modding is not for everyone. I'm very sad because this was my favorite watch by far, and I'll do get another just to replace the bezel insert by the ceramic one I got, which looks awesome, but I believe this movement is shot.

Lesson learned, leave modding to the pros.

[MartinOcando]

Ok, I won't quit on this watch just yet. I've invested in tools too much to leave this like that. I was able to remove the piece of crown stem from inside the movement and it sprang back to life. What worries me is the seconds hand pivot hole, that it might be damaged somewhat. I'll need a new dial, and maybe a new movement. Since the hands I got were Miyota 8215 compatible, I might get a Miyota instead and not run any more risks.

Wish me luck!

[Tudor]

I have reattached the indicies on a few dials. There are alignment pins and a drop of G-S and some patience and steady hand and it’ll be fine. 
 

I don’t fully understand the seconds hand problem- is the bore of the hand too large, so the hand falls off? It seems in one case it’s too small and in the other it’s too large.  And the original hand doesn’t fit either? I have heard of super glue being used by the “faker maker” replica factories but I’ve never run into it first hand  I have had an hour hand come apart because the pinion sleeve was separate from the hand...

If there is a date complication, set the hour hand to midnight just as the date flips. Then add the minute hand also at midnight- as close to dead on midnight and both hands perfectly overlapped, and pointing at midnight. I have heard of bringing hands to noon, popping them off and re setting them, but this often does not align perfectly with midnight date change. It’s not unusual for me to tweak it 10-15 times until I’m satisfied it’s as good as it’ll get. 
 

And I also screwed the pooch on a few movements getting the hang of things. A very light touch is needed for everything. Too tight a grip with tweezers will send a screw into low earth orbit before you know what happened. 

[VWatchie]

6 hours ago, Tudor said:

is the bore of the hand too large

Thanks for the terminology! 

[JohnD]

I suspect that when you removed the original seconds hand you inadvertently broke the end off of the fourth wheel pivot, the remains of which are still in the bore of the hand, which is why you can't even re-attach that.....

[Tudor]

That would also make the new hand have trouble grabbing what’s left of the pinion... good thought. 

[MartinOcando]

Ah, you gave me a few laughs, Tudor. Especially the low orbit thing. You are so right. Although the crown is giving me so much grief. Apparently I detached the crown in the wrong position, so I can no longer push the crown in and get to the point of quick date or manual wind. It just stays at the hacking and time change point. I already broke the stem, and I was able to get it out, thankfully, so I'll wait next week until I get a set of spare stems and crowns that I bought on eBay, so I can replace it.

I do can get the dial fixed, no problem with that. I won't lose sleep over it. What really bothers me is the seconds hand.

The hole for the seconds hand is definitively way too wide for the little pin to fit and stay. If the original were super glued to it, then I guess I'm done with this movement, and won't even considering purchasing another watch from them either. Is sad because is a very good looking watch, but I guess my money will be much better spent in more reputable manufacturers.

BTW, before removing the hands, I did put the old hands to the date change position at 12 o clock. 

Edited October 4, 2020 by MartinOcando

[MartinOcando]

Hope these can help a bit figure out what's happening:

 

[MartinOcando]

BTW, when I was dealing with all of this, I did saw a very tiny rod, like half a mm in length that appeared from somewhere in the watch. I'm not sure the origin. I grabbed with with my Rodico and discarded it. I should have taken a picture of it. I shot a video of the whole hand removal thing, maybe I can find something about how things happened. Let me review it.

Edited October 4, 2020 by MartinOcando

[eccentric59]

If the stem broke and you cannot get the movement out of the setting position I fear you may have a problem in the keyless works that a new stem won't fix. Maybe the yoke jumped the sliding clutch, or worse broke altogether. If either is the case, then you're going to have to take the movement apart to get at the problem. 

 

By the time you invest even in the most basic tools, you could easily just replace the whole movement. Seagull ST16's are available for $35 ~ $40 on eBay and you'll have a good, working watch again. Then, at your leisure you can take the old movement apart and figure out what went wrong.

[MartinOcando]

1 hour ago, eccentric59 said:

If the stem broke and you cannot get the movement out of the setting position I fear you may have a problem in the keyless works that a new stem won't fix. Maybe the yoke jumped the sliding clutch, or worse broke altogether. If either is the case, then you're going to have to take the movement apart to get at the problem. 

 

By the time you invest even in the most basic tools, you could easily just replace the whole movement. Seagull ST16's are available for $35 ~ $40 on eBay and you'll have a good, working watch again. Then, at your leisure you can take the old movement apart and figure out what went wrong.

Agree completely.

[VWatchie]

8 hours ago, MartinOcando said:

Hope these can help a bit figure out what's happening:

 

The pivot of the fourth wheel looks buried beneath the end of the cannon pinion tube. It should tower above the tube of the cannon pinion. You probably broke it off when you removed the original seconds hand. The wheel will have to be replaced.

Anyway, I think you got some really solid advice from @eccentric59 and I agree completely! Unless you already have the tools and aim to become a decent repairer, better get a new movement and replace it. Even that can be a bit of a challenge. Be gentle. Watch movements never ever respond well to any kind of force unless directed in a very precise and premeditated way. The energy always has to go somewhere and in micro mechanics the tolerances are minuscule.

Edited October 4, 2020 by VWatchie

[Rafael]

No appropriate learning is achieved if you didn't mess it up completely. Keep practicing, you'll eventually succeed 

[Tudor]

That bit you found seems to be the seconds pinion. 
 

As mentioned, it should be proud, or at least flush with, the minute pinion. 
 

You could be a trend setter and cap the minute hand and run with no seconds hand. 

[MartinOcando]

Ha, maybe if I put it on a dress watch, but for a sub homage, I'd really like to have a seconds hand. It was my first attempt, and I learned a lot of things. The main one being that I pulled the crown in the wrong place, and damaged the movement from the beginning. Secondly, I excerpted too much force in the hands, and the crown, to the point of breaking the stem, and of course the seconds hand pinion. 

So, I won't take any more chances with watches that I care for, but definitively will try to revive this one. I really like it, and I'm dying to put my green ceramic bezel insert and make it a kermit clone.

[DrG]

14 hours ago, MartinOcando said:

Ha, maybe if I put it on a dress watch, but for a sub homage, I'd really like to have a seconds hand. It was my first attempt, and I learned a lot of things. The main one being that I pulled the crown in the wrong place, and damaged the movement from the beginning. Secondly, I excerpted too much force in the hands, and the crown, to the point of breaking the stem, and of course the seconds hand pinion. 

So, I won't take any more chances with watches that I care for, but definitively will try to revive this one. I really like it, and I'm dying to put my green ceramic bezel insert and make it a kermit clone.

You are doing well! The fact that you decided to perform all this yourself is in itself a great achievement and decision.   I think I speak for all of us when I say that in watchmaking and repair you learn by doing, and this usually means breaking a lot of stuff in the process. I broke many movements when I started out. Just don’t give up!  

In terms of your watch I agree you probably broke the seconds pivot and it looks like the yoke jumped the sliding clutch in the keyless works (this is a common problem in some movements such as ETA 2824s). A solution to this is to place the watch in the hand setting position before removing the stem. This assures the yoke is properly engaged with the sliding clutch. 
 

If you want to continue with this hobby, I would recommend getting a Seagull ST36 movement (ETA 6497 clone) to learn all the mechanics and basics and check out Mark’s course! Once you understand how everything works it becomes much easier.  
 

best regards. 

[MartinOcando]

Thank all for the big help. I feel I need something, and is a movement holder. One thing that it might lead to damaging the movement is that that I didn't had a firm enough foundation. I've seen some fixed holders, and some that are adjustable, I imagine they work with different models. I don't feel like I'll be messing with pricier movements other than the Seagulls, Miyota, or Seiko NH35 and the likes. Any advice on a not-so-expensive movement holder that can be used with all of them?

[DrG]

7 minutes ago, MartinOcando said:

Thank all for the big help. I feel I need something, and is a movement holder. One thing that it might lead to damaging the movement is that that I didn't had a firm enough foundation. I've seen some fixed holders, and some that are adjustable, I imagine they work with different models. I don't feel like I'll be messing with pricier movements other than the Seagulls, Miyota, or Seiko NH35 and the likes. Any advice on a not-so-expensive movement holder that can be used with all of them?

Here is a article I wrote a while ago with info on tools for the hobbyist. Hope it helps.  

Tools for the Hobbyist.pdf