eta 2824 center wheel drops

[Darrel22]

I just put the center wheel in on its own to show you it drops , does anyone know what has caused this to happen .

[Nucejoe]

Just opens one picture showing center wheel sitting there looking pretty.

I guess there are more pix.

Center tube or jewel is worn out or missing.

[Jon]

It doesn't look like a centre wheel (second wheel). It looks like the fourth wheel, which passes through the centre wheel.

Your second hand fits to this.

The arbor look way to narrow to be a centre wheel

[Nucejoe]

Will you show the wheel out by itself and pull the canon pinion show center tube top& bottom view.

[Jon]

Here's a pic of the 2824 mainplate. You can clearly see the fixed centre post and how far it is into the plate. Is this centre post the problem? Has it moved. The 4th wheel goes through this fixed centre pipe, which you showed in the picture. 

The next pic is the train in place

[HSL]

Some more pictures would be nice just as some already stated.

I just saw Jon provided some pictures but since i already prepared these I post these too 

The second wheel, 227 (ETA terminology) is indeed going thru the middle center tube on the movement plate. ETA probably choose to call it so just because of the fact the seconds hand is attached to it.
On the center tube you then got the canon pinion with driving wheel attached, 242.

Here is the ceter tube from the dial side.

Here is the canon pinion.

Now we drop in the center wheel, it has a collet which now should be leaning on the center tube.

Here we now can see the second wheel pivot peek out.

 

With this in mind there are only two options when the seconds wheel pivot will peek out as far as in your picture.

1. The Center tube is gone

2. You got the wrong center wheel, these come on different HH modules stretching from HH1 to HH6. I think HH1 is about 4.8mm high while HH6 is about 6.07mm.

 

[Nucejoe]

Many many many times before, has this been said "a bit of history helps". 

 

 

 

[Darrel22]

Here are some more pics , i am sure it is the center wheel  . not sure if it can be fix, this  is a clone eta ill probably just keep it to learn with for now.   

[Jon]

I'm still struggling to understand what the actual problem is with your centre pipe and arbor that passes through it that holds the second hand?

[jdm]

5 hours ago, HSL said:

The second wheel, 227 (ETA terminology) is indeed going thru the middle center tube on the movement plate. ETA probably choose to call it so just because of the fact the seconds hand is attached to it.

I have always found the wheels naming a bit confusing.

Normally the center (centre) wheel is the real 2nd wheel as in counting from the barrel (who calls it first wheel?) but the 2824 doesn't have it, so it's called intermediate instead. Some people writes "seconds wheel" plural perhaps to help distinguish, but hour and minute wheel(s) names normally stay singular.

It must have been to help with that some organization in Switzerland have standardized with numbers for all makers, I don't know when that happened and haven't ever seen an official source for that. Fortunately we don't use these numbers much, at least on this forum. Of course the Japanese (Seiko, what Citizen uses?) numbers are different so you have to memorize at least 40 from two sets, to feel good with yourself.

I don't think all my mumbling here will help the OP much but I wish him good luck and finish with the mandatory technical document that has a lot of names in three languages, numbers, and nice figures.

 2824-2.pdf

[Jon]

1 minute ago, jdm said:

I have always found the wheels naming a bit confusing.

Normally the center (centre) wheel is the real 2nd wheel as in counting from the barrel (who calls it first wheel?) but the 2824 doesn't have it, so it's called intermediate instead. Some people writes "seconds wheel" plural perhaps to help distinguish, but hour and minute wheel(s) names normally stay singular.

It must have been to help with that some organization in Switzerland have standardized with numbers for all makers, I don't know when that happened and haven't ever seen an official source for that. Fortunately we don't use these numbers much, at least on this forum. Of course the Japanese (Seiko, what Citizen uses?) numbers are different so you have to memorize at least 40 from two sets, to feel good with yourself.

I don't think all my mumbling here will help the OP much but I wish him good luck and finish with the mandatory technical document that has a lot of names in three languages, numbers, and nice figures.

  2824-2.pdf 6.89 MB · 4 downloads

I agree,

The arbor passing through the centre pipe is in my mind a fourth wheel, as it is clearly driven by a third wheel and drives the escape wheel, which has to make it a 'fourth wheel', but ETA have decided in it's infinite 'Swiss wisdom' (and I use that term in the loosest sense) to call it something completely different, which makes no sense to call it a second wheel, which it certainly isn't. Rant over....

[HectorLooi]

I haven't done a 2824 in a long time. I can't really remember but Nucejoe might be right. There ought to be a jewel in the centre pipe. It must have fallen out.

[CaptCalvin]

There is no jewel in center pipe. But that pipe is supposed to be counterbored at the bottom and the collar on the seconds/fourth/center wheel pivot is supposed to rest against that when you go to put it in. Looking at the picture of the dial side this end looks pretty busted so the pivot got nothing to stop against.

[Nucejoe]

Hi,  I have never seen a 2824 clone. So its a tube like in the Swiss eta in which center tube hole narrowds at the outer end, to keep the center wheel from dropping like this.  

Both ends on this tube. appear to have same ID, straight thru.

[Nucejoe]

3 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Hi,  I have never seen a 2824 clone. So its a tube like in the Swiss eta in which center tube hole narrowds at the outer end, to keep the center wheel from dropping like this.  

Both ends on this tube. appear to have same ID, straight thru.

Replace the tube

[HSL]

I thought this was an ETA but since it is not I have to say I have minimal experiance from any of these clones, I guess some are quite close in design but I'm sure lots of them has parts with differences in a part or two which makes a huge difference. 
Someday I will look inte these clones but it will not be today so I feel out of my comfort zone right now, there will probably be a heap of people who has worked on these in here so the mystery will probably be solved. I will follow with great interest and learn  ;)

[Nucejoe]

CaptCalvin said to better than I. 

Center wheel looks OK unless a wrong one,  its the center tube, faulty as expained and termed above. 

 

[Darrel22]

8 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Replace the tube

It Might be a bit  over my skill level of watch repair at this time  and i wouldn't know where to start on getting the center  tube out  , I am still at  the beginning stage of learning about watch parts, I got this mainly for learning to  assemble and dissemble the movement, The good thing is at lest we know what the problem is now  .  

[jdm]

2 hours ago, Darrel22 said:

 I got this mainly for learning to  assemble and dissemble the movement, The good thing is at lest we know what the problem is now  .  

Have you got some accident while pulling the cannon pinion? Possibly a piece of the tube is still inside it.

Edited September 14, 2020 by jdm

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, Darrel22 said:

It Might be a bit  over my skill level of watch repair at this time  and i wouldn't know where to start on getting the center  tube out  , I am still at  the beginning stage of learning about watch parts, I got this mainly for learning to  assemble and dissemble the movement, The good thing is at lest we know what the problem is now  .  

The problem you might have is unavailabilty on spare parts for chinese clone, which narrows down your options to a spare movement, used/ new.

 Replacing the tube, requires no special tool or skill, you just push on it from outside the mainplate and reverse to insert one in, use the end portion of your tweezers to push on the tube, any wooden or plastic stick may work, keep in mind the tube is to sit flush level with the mainplate on the inside. 

Good luck

[hpekala]

From Aliexpress seller ZheMiaoDi Store can be found the center tube and other eta parts. Compatibility has been good with at least genuine eta.


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