Lathes recommendation

[Daniel123]

Hi, not that I can afford one at the moment, but I thought I’d start research on second hand lathes. So my question is what do people recommend?

[oldhippy]

Do you want one for watch work or clock work. What do you intend to do on it. do you want a direct motor driven or a foot controlled.  You need to ask yourself this so we can advise you. 

[watchweasol]

Hi  That is a good question and I am sure you will get many varied opinions as to which are the best and for what purpose.  I have never used or had a bad lathe as like I said depends on use.  I used a Myford 7 floor standing lathe in my youth for turning shafts, rivits etc and I dare say in the right hands could have been used for clock work.

I myself have three a watchmakers 6.5mm.  An American pattern (no name) with both collets and a bernerd chuck, cross slide and tail stock with drilling attachment and a model maker lathe with 4 jaw independent chuck ,  All three are use ful but for general work and versatility the American pattern is the all rounder.

[nickelsilver]

Also, where you are located might help. If in England you might want to get a Pultra, if in the U.S. there's plenty of Levin, Derbyshire, as well as Boley and Boley&Leinen. U.S. has Sherline if going more for clock stuff, elsewhere Unimat might be easier to find and find accessories for.

 

Regardless, try to get something that takes 8mm collets (most Pultra are 10mm but can be adapted). Those are the most plentiful, and you never have too many collets. Sherline can take them with an adapter, and Unimat had a couple of spindle options, one of which takes them.

[Daniel123]

Hi, it would be for watch work mostly, I now have two pocket watches that have unique balance staffs and I’m coming to the conclusion that eventually I need to learn how to make my own balance staffs. I’m based in the uk, biggest factor is going to be cost as I’m not going to be using it constantly I would like something that works but isn’t going to bankrupt me.

[oldhippy]

Just looked on ebay, I think I counted three that are good but all over £1,000. The watchmakers lathe I had was a Boley with various accessories with a foot control. 

[JGrainger]

There are a bunch of things to consider,

I've found it's nice to have a couple of different size machines for doing different things. For turning balance staffs a 6mm Geneva pattern lathe with loads of collets and some useful accessories would be able to do a great job on balance staffs. These are cheaper than 8mm lathes because 6mm collets can't be bought new - though if you also had an accurate larger lathe it could be possible to make many accessories (..though while possible, really concentric collets aren't quite so easy to make).

In 8mm there are more choices and new collets are available at a range of prices and quality levels. Collets are generally more important than the machine, some people get round this by working more with "wax chucks" and turning between centres. The WW lathes are more rigid (and seemingly likely to have a flip-over tool-rest - pretty handy to have) but a Geneva lathe is arguable slightly ergonomically different because the bed is narrower. The available accessories are more or less the same but the available accessories differ based on location, partly the popularity of either lathe pattern but also historic social circumstances and approaches to spending money of past generations, and trends in repairing parts vs replacing them - some elaborate accessories seem more available outside the UK.. for example, in the UK I see more re-pivoting tailstock accessories for Geneva lathes but I've just bought a grinding attachment for my WW lathe - haven't seen one for a Geneva lathe during casual looking..

The 10mm lathes are also nice but arguably more suitable for clocks or the less delicate parts of watch repair, like wheel cutting. One of my friends uses a really complete 6mm lathe for balance staffs and similar stuff, a 10mm Pultra for clocks and small gear cutting, and a South bend for anything bigger (such as turning work on accessories or tooling).

I'll add technique too.. From reading other forums I've seen there are some people in a camp of producing balance staffs with Sherline lathes - using the compound slide and making parts to numbers rather than the usual hand turning method, this is somewhat as balance staffs would have been made on automated machines.. A new Sherline is probably better than a WW 8mm lathe for that method.

The accessories are usually more important than the lathe, sometimes people buy sets to pick the best bits then re-sell. Accessories can usually be switched (with some exceptions or work arounds) between different examples of the same type of lathe, and it can be much more expensive to buy collets separately.

With Collets vs wax chucks and centres.. a full set of collets is handy, and is the most simple way of working. Wax chucks are slower and require a bit of practice but are cheap and arguably more accurate. For example, you could have a 2.5mm collet and a stock of 2.5mm blued steel, then turn staffs "in-one" - possibly performing adjustments with a wax chuck or a jacot tool. You could also use one size of steel and collet to turn blank staffs to turn between centres (but this is quite a skilled method of working). The other sizes of collets are useful for turning staffs one end at a time, or for gripping other parts for working/ repairing them.. but much of that could also be done with wax chucks.. Despite this, I don't think many a pro would justify the extra time for wax chucks over just buying a full set of collets - mostly time vs money.

Beyond this, a larger lathe is also handy, sometimes they aren't so expensive but it's a case of finding such a lathe which is being sold for unfortunate reasons/ lack of need/ space rather than because it's worn out.. for larger lathes I'm not a fan of the Myford 7 outside of collectors circles.

My own setup is a 8mm Geneva pattern lathe - for balance staffs/ delicate work, 8mm WW lathe - for less delicate work or to more easily find/fit some accessories, large bench lathe which resembles a massive WW lathe - for gear cutting, threading, making tools, etc, and a chinese 7x10 lathe - useful for making metric stuff like threading hobs for the bench lathe - if I can't get some time on a bigger machine.

Edited June 22, 2020 by JGrainger
addition

[Daniel123]

I think I’ll try and get a 6mm to start with as it’s most likely going to be balance staffs I’m turning, collets do seem to be available ether on there own or with a lathe. They are very different from the lathes I used when I worked as an agriculture engineer so I think extensive training and practice will be needed. I’m interested in what you said about a Jacot tool I don’t have much experience of one would I use one to adjust an existing balance staff?

[oldhippy]

When you have experience in making staffs, it isn't easy and you will have many mistakes, not many watch repairers can make staffs. There is no need for a Jacot tool, every thing can be done with the lathe. 

[jdrichard]

  On 6/22/2020 at 2:42 PM, Daniel123 said:

Hi, it would be for watch work mostly, I now have two pocket watches that have unique balance staffs and I’m coming to the conclusion that eventually I need to learn how to make my own balance staffs. I’m based in the uk, biggest factor is going to be cost as I’m not going to be using it constantly I would like something that works but isn’t going to bankrupt me.

Get a WW 8mm Pearless. Good lathe and easy to find on eBay. Of course, as was said previously, G Boley and others are always available on eBay. Some day I may sell one of my 13 lathes:)


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[jdrichard]

  On 6/22/2020 at 2:42 PM, Daniel123 said:

Hi, it would be for watch work mostly, I now have two pocket watches that have unique balance staffs and I’m coming to the conclusion that eventually I need to learn how to make my own balance staffs. I’m based in the uk, biggest factor is going to be cost as I’m not going to be using it constantly I would like something that works but isn’t going to bankrupt me.

Get a WW 8mm Pearless. Good lathe and easy to find on eBay. Of course, as was said previously, G Boley and others are always available on eBay. Some day I may sell one of my 13 lathes:)


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[JGrainger]

The jacot tool is traditionally used for finishing/ final sizing / polishing and burnishing of staffs. It comes down to preference but realistically the jacot tool requires quite a lot of skill to use - but that isn't all.

The jobs done on the jacot tool can be done on the lathe and they're also pretty difficult and expensive to find in good condition.. I've got two due to the condition/ price factors - and hope to eventually switch to doing all jobs on the lathe (sometimes set up as turns). The main accessory for using the lathe as a jocot tool is an offset holder which slides into the tailstock, different runners and lantern / pivot drilling disc can be attached to it.

Despite this, depending on the watches you're working on - for a lot of normal watches, the staffs can be finished on the lathe while they're being made (without the tailstock accessories).

I'd recommend watching a few videos to see different methods of making staffs so that you can get the best feel for what you will need. I think JR has a video in another section of this forum.

[JGrainger]

I should also say.. pretty sure I recently read that if you wish to do all of the BHI distance learning courses in future, a 8mm lathe may be required for the maximum size through the collets, to do one of the pieces of work.

[jdrichard]

  On 6/22/2020 at 9:04 PM, JGrainger said:

The jacot tool is traditionally used for finishing/ final sizing / polishing and burnishing of staffs. It comes down to preference but realistically the jacot tool requires quite a lot of skill to use - but that isn't all.
The jobs done on the jacot tool can be done on the lathe and they're also pretty difficult and expensive to find in good condition.. I've got two due to the condition/ price factors - and hope to eventually switch to doing all jobs on the lathe (sometimes set up as turns). The main accessory for using the lathe as a jocot tool is an offset holder which slides into the tailstock, different runners and lantern / pivot drilling disc can be attached to it.
Despite this, depending on the watches you're working on - for a lot of normal watches, the staffs can be finished on the lathe while they're being made (without the tailstock accessories).
I'd recommend watching a few videos to see different methods of making staffs so that you can get the best feel for what you will need. I think JR has a video in another section of this forum.

Here you go:

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[Daniel123]

Thanks guys I’m now going to save for a 8mm lathe. There are a few on eBay

[oldhippy]

Buying second hand, make sure the lathe bed is perfect you don't want it to be scored or pitted. Make sure the bearings are perfect. Ask if it has been dropped. 

[Stymied]

Not to distract from a great subject, but I notice noone ever discusses the use of Mills for watchmaking. For myself I have been looking at the Derbyshire 750-s on EBay for the height of the spindle and have begun to wonder if the mill might be a better alternative. Has anyone used a mill for watch repair or have any opinions?

Best Wishes,

 

Bruce

[nickelsilver]

I use a milling machine all the time for watch work, often for gear cutting, but a myriad of other things too. I absolutely couldn't live without it. I also use the milling machine's cousin, the jig borer quite a bit.

 

I also make about one staff per week on average, and in contrast to some opinions above I wouldn't dream of finishing the pivots without a jacot tool. That's how they're finished from the factory (automated machines).