2824 Date don't change completely

[panchoskywalker]

Hello, 

I've build this watch with parts I got from ebay, the movement is a clone 2824 from seagull, the dial was for 2783 so I had to change the feet position with epoxy. The problem I have is, as you see on the pictures, the date don't change completely, it stay in between 2 dates.

I can set the date with the crown, no problem with that and also the date change correctly when I change the time. It only stay in between when I am wearing it or when it sit on the table.

I am thinking that the dial is maybe too close to the movement, but I have no idea.

Do you know which may be the problem?

Edited December 5, 2019 by panchoskywalker

[watchweasol]

Hi   I would suggest taking the movement out and removing the dial and hands and make sure the date wheel is revolving ok  If so then check the epoxy used to re position the dial feet is not catching or causing a bind on the date wheel because of sufficient clearance. What you describe is that the date wheel detent is not engaging properly holding the wheel in position.

[rogart63]

Do you have a spacer under the dial. There is usually a thin spacer on the 2824-2 . Also check that you have a low datedisc. There is disc that have room for a daydisc. 

[panchoskywalker]

18 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi   I would suggest taking the movement out and removing the dial and hands and make sure the date wheel is revolving ok  If so then check the epoxy used to re position the dial feet is not catching or causing a bind on the date wheel because of sufficient clearance. What you describe is that the date wheel detent is not engaging properly holding the wheel in position.

Thank you, I also think clearance might be the problem.

12 minutes ago, rogart63 said:

Do you have a spacer under the dial. There is usually a thin spacer on the 2824-2 . Also check that you have a low datedisc. There is disc that have room for a daydisc. 

No spacer under the dial, I always thought it was like optional, I will check that. Thank you.

[rogart63]

12 minutes ago, panchoskywalker said:

Thank you, I also think clearance might be the problem.

No spacer under the dial, I always thought it was like optional, I will check that. Thank you.

Think you need a spacer . The date could work outside the case ? But when you put it in the case and crank down on the caseback the dial press on the datedisc. 

[panchoskywalker]

As soon as I removed the dial the date moved to the correct position so I tried sanding down the epoxy and installing with a spacer but there wasn't enough room and the minute hand was touching the indices so I tried removing the spacer and it looks better. It is sitting on the table and I'll see if the date change correctly during the night.

Thank you,

[anilv]

If I recall correctly on the 2824 there is a ring which goes on the edge of the movement before the dial goes on. This ensures the correct distance of the dial from the datewheel. If this ring is missing the date wont work well.

anilv

[panchoskywalker]

3 hours ago, anilv said:

If I recall correctly on the 2824 there is a ring which goes on the edge of the movement before the dial goes on. This ensures the correct distance of the dial from the datewheel. If this ring is missing the date wont work well.

anilv

Yes, that's the spacer I mention in my previous message. I tried to use it but it leaves no room for the hands to work properly.

[panchoskywalker]

As usual when I try to fix something I always mess it up a little bit before, so now the movement doesn't work. I wind it but it doesn't start, it's like the barrel spring was stuck, I tried to fix it but I can't. The only difference I note is that changing the crown position is harder that before.

 

Hopefully someone can give me a hand.

 

 

 

[rogart63]

Not 100% i see correct . But isn't the setting lever in the wrong position . Looks like it has jumped up and is on top of the clutch wheel . That way maybe the hacking lever is lying on the balance wheel . Stopping the movement. So check again that everything is correct in the keyless work. 

 

[panchoskywalker]

Well, thank you, I've remounted the thing a 100 times now. Only thing I could find is this:

There's a missing teeth on this part, what's the name of this thing? I'll need to buy a new one.

[rogart63]

2 hours ago, panchoskywalker said:

Well, thank you, I've remounted the thing a 100 times now. Only thing I could find is this:

There's a missing teeth on this part, what's the name of this thing? I'll need to buy a new one.

Crown wheel.  How does the ratchet wheel look if the crown wheel  is broken. Have that part but don't know where you are from. Send me a PM if you want me to send it to you? 

Edited December 7, 2019 by rogart63

[panchoskywalker]

Thank you, I found a replacement in my drawer from an eta 2784. Ratchet wheel is fine, no teeth missing, but the movement still doesn't tick. I will give a rest for today cause I am going crazy remounting it, I'll continue in a few days.

[watchweasol]

Hi   If the watch is not ticking there is some power loss to the balance, So its back to basics.

Dismantle the watch again assemble the train wheels and check for freedom  of movement then add the fork and apply a little manual power to the train and check the fork moves smartly, if so add the balance and repeat if the balance swings on then you will have to work backwards to the mainspring and barrel if all that checks out re fit the barrel and tension using a screwdriver on the ratchet wheel and re check that the balance is now swinging under power, If so now re-assemble the key-less work and check the action checking that the hacking lever engages and dis engages.  Now we are ready to wind up the watch say 6 to 7 turns and now re-check the balance if all is well it should be working.

[panchoskywalker]

 

3 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi   If the watch is not ticking there is some power loss to the balance, So its back to basics.

Dismantle the watch again assemble the train wheels and check for freedom  of movement then add the fork and apply a little manual power to the train and check the fork moves smartly, if so add the balance and repeat if the balance swings on then you will have to work backwards to the mainspring and barrel if all that checks out re fit the barrel and tension using a screwdriver on the ratchet wheel and re check that the balance is now swinging under power, If so now re-assemble the key-less work and check the action checking that the hacking lever engages and dis engages.  Now we are ready to wind up the watch say 6 to 7 turns and now re-check the balance if all is well it should be working.

Thing is I am not allowed by myself to go into the train wheels, the last time I disassemble one I was unable to rebuild it. Now if it run and stop, as I explain below, I assume the train wheels is correct. 

I've put the original crown wheel back as the other one wasn't working, the screw turns when I wind it and it get stuck, same thing happens with the crown wheel from an eta 2783 and from a cheap 2824 clone.

So now it has the original crown wheel and I can wind it slowly and it runs and stop, there's like something that doesn't allow the train wheel to work properly as I see the second wheel want to move and it can't.

 

Edited December 7, 2019 by panchoskywalker

[jdm]

Maybe during manipulation some debris went in the train. You can't do anything but go by steps and elimination. Pallet off, ratchet wheel off, blown air on the train and it must move easily. Pallets back on, wind it a a little, the fork must jump from one side to the other at the lightest touch with an oiler. That will rule out an issue with the train without taking it apart.

[panchoskywalker]

Well I reassembled the train wheels and it starts running again for 5 minutes and then it stopped. Now the second wheel move from one side to another, like there was something that blocks it.

Edited December 8, 2019 by panchoskywalker

[watchweasol]

Hi  Have you checked that there are no broken teeth on the wheels ?  To save a complete dismantle do what jdm suggests, remove the fork/pallet and balance. First removing all power from the mainspring and check the train in situ, If still blocked remove the barrle and re try the train, at that point there should only be the train wheels and escape wheel and they should be free.

[panchoskywalker]

I did, the intermediate wheel had several teeth missing so that's why it run and stops. 

At this point I'll just go for a new ST2130 movement, any watchmaker will cost more than that and  buying the parts + shipping will be half the price of the st2130.

Thank you.

[watchweasol]

Hi  You found the problem ok. you are probably right to go for another movement a clean start.                                           

[jdm]

20 minutes ago, panchoskywalker said:

I did, the intermediate wheel had several teeth missing so that's why it run and stops. 
At this point I'll just go for a new ST2130 movement, any watchmaker will cost more than that and  buying the parts + shipping will be half the price of the st2130.

May I suggest that you are extremely careful in handling the piece, like zero forcing of anything ever, no free runs of the train under MS power, etc. Chinese mov'ts are especially delicate, they tend to break by themselves easily and do not resist any mistreatment. Very recently I have broken a Shangai one in three different parts, that before counting the rotor that had split in two and the anti-shock spring that left on a shock. A Segull can be just $60 but a Sellita 200 for GBP at 140+VAT is not that far way in terms of price, but deliver much better reliability, and the parts are actually available.