What's wrong with this Orient balance

[Lc130]

Hi All

I'm a beginner.  I apologize for having posted several questions about this project over the last year without having them all in one thread.   The day job dictates my watch learning schedule and I now have heaps of time through Feb.

This is an Orient with the plate stamped H9.  I bought it as a non-runner and found a dial foot screw in the wheel train.  Not so easy!  After reassembly, the amplitude was too low to register.  My guess is that it's a balance problem. 

I've cleaned and re cleaned the balance jewels, removed the balance from the cock and stuck the pinions in pithwood (is it as straightforward as that? not an easy job with HS attached).  The cap jewels got a puddle of 8000.  Still a puff of air does little to the balance compared to what I've seen before.  Here: 

 

End shake appears stiff to this beginner 

 

Balance pinions and HS look ok to this novice.  The hole jewel and caps looked perfect.  I've checked and rechecked that I didn't install the caps upside down.

 

Any and all suggestions welcome.

Thank you

Charlie

Edited October 26, 2019 by Lc130

[Nucejoe]

I don,t see anything wrong with the balance. 

The pivot seem to jump out of jewel hole, as you lift the balance. Usually due to excess end shake or brUoken jewel.  

Pivots are fine.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Nucejoe
Pivots looks streight but may have worn short

[Nucejoe]

Lower pivot may be too short, so its shoulder rubs on the jewel housing.

In which case you normally see less resistance to the motion, if you flip the movement over.

[wls1971]

 

1 hour ago, Lc130 said:

I've checked and rechecked that I didn't install the caps upside down.

I assume by this you mean orientation of the flat side and the domed side of the jewel ?

but are you sure you put the cap jewels in the right place ? they are quite often not the same, the cap jewel that goes in the main plate is often thinner than the jewel that fits on the balance cock which is often thicker.

[Lc130]

1 minute ago, wls1971 said:

 

I assume by this you mean orientation of the flat side and the domed side of the jewel ?

but are you sure you put the cap jewels in the right place ? they are quite often not the same, the cap jewel that goes in the main plate is often thinner than the jewel that fits on the balance cock which is often thicker.

I ensured that the flat side of the cap is toward the pivot.

I've often wondered whether the cap and hole jewels are the same on top and bottom. Not being sure, I did keep track of them.  Though possible someone else reversed them.  The HS stud looked a bit chewed under the microscope.  Someone's been at it.

[Nucejoe]

If for any reason, the lower pivot shoulder rubs on the jewel housing, the wheel isn,t free to move. 

Check if the lower shoulder  stands proud of lower housing ( 2/100 mm is plenty), so there is a gap between the shoulder and housing, you would see the gap even with low magnification as a dark ring around the staff at the shoulder.

I go non technical here and flip the lower end stone so the dome faces the pivot and adjust end shake such that the jewel quits jumping out of the jewel hole. Many frown on flipping the end stones.

I gather you are sure the hairspring is not rubbing on anything.

 

[Nucejoe]

Pivot shoulder rubbing on the jewel housing, which can be due to worn pivots, defeats the purpose of putting jewels back where they were.

[Nucejoe]

Lower pivot is worn and rounded,  which facilitates jumping out of jewel hole, end shake reduction to 2/100 mm is a solution to that.

 

 

[clockboy]

It looks like the balance staff is binding but nothing obvious from your pics or vid. I did encounter this once when I had mixed the upper and lower jewels.  

[mousekar]

I have no new information to add, but will also say that I’ve seen the same symptoms when the cap jewels were placed in the wrong spot. They are slightly different in thickness. And that’s a pretty simple think to check. After that, I would explore what Nucejoe is saying about the pivots.

good luck, I would certainly be interested in the updates!

[Lc130]

Thank you all.

I swapped the bottom and top jewels with each other keeping the hole jewels with them.  The problem is still there.  I did notice that one of the kif springs is concave.  In other words, it appears to have to bow upwards over the jewel in order to he installed.  Is this normal?

I was just barley able to get pics thru the microscope of the pivots sitting in the hole jewels.  As a beginner, I have no idea what the clearance should be.  This is the bottom

And top

Is next step to reinstall the cap jewels curved side down?  Again, at my stage, any fiddling with it risks losing parts.

Thank you

frustrated in maryland

Edited October 27, 2019 by Lc130

[Nucejoe]

I put back the springs right.  End stone's flat side is to face the pivot, springs concave side is to face end stone. 

Third and fourth pic didn,t help much.

If hairspring is not rubbing on spokes or cock, roller table not rubbing on fork horn, you have pivots left to blame. 

Third and fourth pic didn,t make much clear.

I bet pivot shoulder rub on jewel housing.  

Lets go back to first pic, flip the movement over, mainpalte  up, bridge  down, give it another puff, the wheel should move less hindered.

 

 

[Nucejoe]

Oh didn,t think of this.    If the rim of balance wheel is rubbing on mainplate, the wheel should turn freely with movement flipped upside down. This is the likliest senario.

 

[Lc130]

Same results upside down.  I did notice that the balance will behave as it should when I put the bridge on and before pushing it down.  Does this mean not enough end shake?  If so what would cause it and can it be repaired?

Also,  I have a balance from an Orient 11E4B8 which looks the same to this beginner.  Is it worth trying it?  

Charlie

 

[Nucejoe]

Balance staff axial free play is called end shake. 

The second video you posted shows the balance wheel free play. 

Plenty of end shake there.

 

Edited October 27, 2019 by Nucejoe
Part 1of 3

[Nucejoe]

If end shake feel stiff, end stones are pushing on the pivots, you may want to shim the bridge. Insert a thin layer of aluminium foil under the bridge, tighten bridge screws on.

[Lc130]

Thank you Nucejoe.  I'm up to 4 layers of foil now with no changes.  It seems to only swing as expected with very little pressure.

A question: assuming it once worked, what would cause the end shake to decrease? 

Charlie

[Nucejoe]

10 minutes ago, Lc130 said:

Thank you Nucejoe.  I'm up to 4 layers of foil now with no changes.  It seems to only swing as expected with very little pressure.

A question: assuming it once worked, what would cause the end shake to decrease?

Shimmed previously, you wont notice the shim, it gets washed away as you are cleaning.  

Any cause reducing the distance between upper and lower end stone.

So many layers of shims, are you getting any free end play of staff? 

[Nucejoe]

56 minutes ago, Lc130 said:

Thank you Nucejoe.  I'm up to 4 layers of foil now with no changes.  It seems to only swing as expected with very little pressure.

A question: assuming it once worked, what would cause the end shake to decrease? 

Charlie

Pressure on what? Jewel? Cock? 

[Nucejoe]

So, you are sure HS is not rubbing on spokes nor on balance bridge. Observe the HS from movement side view, it should be level, concentric coils, not rub on bridge or the wheel.

Staff may be a wrong one, too long. 

Moved jewel

Balance bridge bent downward.

Pivot would need to be noticably bent to hinder balance like this.

 

[Nucejoe]

Check if stud touches spokes of balance wheel. 

[Lc130]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

Pressure on what? Jewel? Cock? 

It works when I first set the balance on with the pivots in the holes.  I haven't even pushed the bridge down to the point where it touches the plate.

I've given the coils a good look under the 20X microscope.  Nothing is touching.  

As a novice, it appears that the staff is too long.  Though, that seems too simple.  I would suspect that it was working at one point???

[Nucejoe]

It acts like hitting something as you puff air, like the impulse jewel gets locked on one side of the fork horn, but I see no fork installed, is it installed? 

It is hitting something, like stud hitting balance on spokes. Which could be if staff is too tall, raising balance too close to the stud. 

You could very well be right, someone fitted wrong balance complete and shimmed the hell ....   

Will check back for updates.

 

 

[Nucejoe]

The bridge bent downward, reducing the distance between the end stones is more probable than excessively long staff. We expected shimming to compensate for such issue, didn,t help as  you shimmed up to four layers. What if the bridge is bent more than four folds thickness.

 

[Lc130]

The bridge is flat as far as I can tell.  Am I wasting my time at this point?  Should I keep adding layers of foil?

Thank you

Charlie