Should I be worried about radium?

[Waggy]

I think we need to put things into perspective, we can't treat the watch like its some kind of death machine when we are working on it and then as something benign after that and wear it day-to-day on our wrist, a good example of cognitive dissonance. I know that the body of the watch will block the alpha radiation which is the main concern, but the radiation detectors don't pick up alpha, so it is definitely throwing off other types of radiation too, otherwise our detectors would be useless. I typically get the hands off as soon as I can and dunk them in a benzine jar with acetone, for PPE I use finger cots. I then dispose of the cots and (contaminated) acetone, I give the watch body (including the dial) a few puffs of air outside on my balcony to remove any free radium dust. Hence, the only remaining radium will be on the numbering on the dial, but this is usually a lot less free to flake or become something you can pick up on your fingers or breath in as it is glued in place and it can only become free if you start messing with it.

After the above I treat the watch like any other.

The extremes some people go to reminds me of a conversation I had in the late 90's or early 2000's when a friend of mine said he would never use a cell phone as it gave you brain cancer, the irony was that he was smoking while he was telling me this. So, it's all about quantifying risk, get a radiation detector and take reasonable precautions to massively reduce the already minuscule risk without overdoing it. I don't think there are any data to support a conclusion that watchmakers are at a statistically significant increased risk of radiation related ailments than those that are not exposed to the risk of radium, but, of course, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, thus my reasonable precautions above.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Waggy

[mikepilk]

9 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

My dad serviced many thousands of watches from 1947 to 1990. He never worried about radium. He died at age 93. Was not caused by radium.

That argument is used by smokers :- "I knew someone who smoked and lived to 100"

People have fallen out of aircraft without a parachute and survived.  If jumping out of an aircraft, I would want to be wearing a parachute.

[Waggy]

I think we are arguing the same point from different directions, I suppose what I was trying to do (badly) was introduce the concept of ALARP (as low as reasonably practicable) which involves lowering a risk as much as possible without increasing unreasonably the trouble, time and money needed to control it. In your example I agree with you that a parachute and a reserve would be ALARP, but adding 3rd or 4th parachute 'just in case' would not be ALARP.

The reason I hesitated using the acronym is that it ALARP is frequently perverted into a justification for cheeping out on safety, or as it is commonly known: as low as reasonably PRICED. But in its true form I believe even modest precautions with radium would be ALARP.

 

 

[LittleWatchShop]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

That argument is used by smokers :- "I knew someone who smoked and lived to 100"

People have fallen out of aircraft without a parachute and survived.  If jumping out of an aircraft, I would want to be wearing a parachute.

That was my anecdotal evidence. Give me yours. Evidence of one watchmaker who died from radium induced bone cancer. This radium fear has been overly hyped.

21 minutes ago, Waggy said:

ALARP

I like acronyms.

To minimize Risk/Reward, we can either reduce risk, or increase reward. For horological radium (let's call it HR), there is some unknown risk that cannot be quantified nor agreed upon. But whatever it is, give it a value and fix it.  Then ask yourself about the reward. Except in rare cases, probably not much.

Back to ALARP...reminds me of the Alar scare.

Life is full of risks and rewards. You place your bet and spins the wheel!

Edited October 18, 2023 by LittleWatchShop

[Waggy]

ha ha, I think we have flogged this horse to death

[mikepilk]

34 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

That was my anecdotal evidence. Give me yours.

I haven't searched for any, but "anecdotal evidence" with a sample of one is not evidence.

To back up my point, I can give you real evidence of people who fell out of aircraft and survived, or smoked and lived to old age. I'm not saying there is a problem, but "anecdotal evidence" does not prove there isn't.

Nullius in verba

(Just found this, interesting. I only have one radium dialed watch, which I keep in a ziplock bag. I don't know if that contains the radon)

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/new-report-shows-radium-dials-might-pose-serious-danger

(BTW I'm with you in thinking that the danger is generally exaggerated)

Edited October 18, 2023 by mikepilk

[markr]

Radium is extremely dangerous and all watches tools and parts even your house that have come in contact with it should be sent to me immediately.

[LittleWatchShop]

All A-11 and A-17 military watches should come to me.  @markr is not qualified to deal with them.

[mikepilk]

I spit in the eye of danger @LittleWatchShop   

I was going to post pics of radium toothpaste, water, and suppositories (), but it's a bit off topic.

But I do need to get some of this hand cleaner, it sounds great : "Takes off everything but the skin"  
. . . but given time.

 

 

 

 

  

[arron]

I read the article posted by @mikepilk.  If anyone locates the actual study, please share; it might be interesting to read.  

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, arron said:

I read the article posted by @mikepilk.  If anyone locates the actual study, please share; it might be interesting to read.  

Found with a bit of Googling (I think this is the right one, I haven't read it yet)

Crockett_Robin_E_2012_Radium_dial_watches_a_potentially_hazardous_legacy.docx.pdf

[LittleWatchShop]

 

[arron]

That was an interesting study.  I never thought I'd see the word "gonadol" in print, but there it is: "Robinson (1968) estimated the average gonadol dose-equivalent rate was 3 339 mrem/y (0.03 mSv/y) for each of the 10 million people in the USA who wore such watches . . . ." 

 

I guess the upshot of the study is to take precautions not only with the radium but also with the radon gas.  

[AndyHull]

9 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Found with a bit of Googling (I think this is the right one, I haven't read it yet)

Interesting read. Although I have previously mentioned contamination in Scotland caused by Timex (Dundee)  and Westclox (Dumbarton) and the scrap dial disposal at the site in Fife, I had forgotten about the contamination in Wishaw at Gowkthrapple, next to the former site of a primary school, caused by Smiths Industries luminising plant (watch and instrument dials).

Incidentally a lot of this radioactive junk was "disposed of" (i.e. thrown off the back of a ship) in the Beauforts Dyke area of the Atlantic between Scotland and Ireland, along with masses of unexploded WW2 and later ordnance, which includes white phosphorous bombs. These wash up from time to time on the coasts around this area. Presumably all sorts of other contaminants are down there too, as the oceanic trench was treated as a magic portal into which anything could be thrown, in order to make it simply vanish from public concern.

Maybe it will make for self heating fish with real fish fingers.

[AndyHull]

Quote

"The HSE (2002) highlighted controls on timepieces containing radioactive substances for those in the retail and antique trade, noting that they were no longer free to dispose of damaged luminised clocks and watches with general refuse (96/29/EURATOM)."

I take it from that, burying them in the garden is now the preferred method.

It seems that the advice, post 2002 is now even more ambiguous. A domestic user, can dispose of in the domestic waste, but someone in the "retail and antique trade" cannot, so you can't throw it in the bin at work, but you can take it home and throw it in the bin. Sounds like the typical joined up "gubmint" thinking we have all come to know and love in this country.

[mikepilk]

12 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Found with a bit of Googling (I think this is the right one, I haven't read it yet)

Crockett_Robin_E_2012_Radium_dial_watches_a_potentially_hazardous_legacy.docx.pdf 1.25 MB · 7 downloads

Very interesting reading, especially about the radon danger. This is important reading for those who have collections of radium dialled watches.

Is there a way it can be posted at a higher level to make those people aware?

[Waggy]

Here is the paper in its published format:

gillmore2012.pdf

Google scholar reports it has been cited 15 times, so reasonable testament that it is a good paper 

[mikepilk]

49 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Here is the paper in its published format:

That's much easier to read, thanks.

From what I've found about radon gas. It's easily contained in an airtight container, so my ziplock bags work OK. But, it decays to daughter products which contaminate the inside of the container. So open it outside.

[stylo9]

Radium hands. treat with respect
Radium dial numbers, usually under the varnish coat and also not nearly as active when tested.
Basically don't eat it and wash hands after dealing with it
Ladies who died from radiation poisoning from watch industry were ingesting large amounts daily for years

[mikepilk]

3 minutes ago, stylo9 said:

Radium hands. treat with respect
Radium dial numbers, usually under the varnish coat and also not nearly as active when tested.

Depends on how much radium was used on the numbers

[Waggy]

[swiss2k]

 

I found this presentation interesting.

[Knebo]

On 10/19/2023 at 10:45 AM, Waggy said:

Here is the paper in its published format:

gillmore2012.pdf 989.44 kB · 8 downloads

Google scholar reports it has been cited 15 times, so reasonable testament that it is a good paper 

Wow @RichardHarris123, I didn't know you were a famous scientist! You are one of the authors, right?

 

On 6/3/2024 at 11:32 AM, swiss2k said:

 

I found this presentation interesting.

I watched this a few years ago.

What I found interesting is the title of her presentation "how I stopped worrying about radium dials"...... BUT then she carries her watches in a lead-line bag!?!? Sounds like a contradiction to me.

 

Personally (!!!!), I don't want to work on radium dials/hands. Which is a shame, because I love watches from the 1930s to 50s. Even when working on tritium dials, I wear a mask, wear cots (as always..), open the window, try to remove any loose lume with Rodico and then dispose of it, and wash my hands thoroughly.

I assume that this level of precaution may be excessive (for Tritium), but I would think that it's the minimum when working on Radium. Especially a mask, I'd say, is essential to avoid inhaling any particles. I understand that's the main risk for Radium and its alpha radiation, which is harmless in a closed watch case with its crystal, but dangerous inside the body.

I keep my watches, including one with a lot (!) of Radium on the dial and hands in a normal watch box -- I guess I should rather keep it in a well-ventilated area due to its Radon gas emissions. 

 

My approach is based on some researching on the topic + an innate fear of radioactivity (maybe based on my mother's stories of Chernobyl fallout/rain when I was a small child).

[RichardHarris123]

11 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Wow @RichardHarris123, I didn't know you were a famous scientist! You are one of the authors, right?

I'm a man of many talents, I  used to be a famous actor.  Hehe.

[LittleWatchShop]

23 hours ago, Knebo said:

What I found interesting is the title of her presentation "how I stopped worrying about radium dials"...... BUT then she carries her watches in a lead-line bag!?!? Sounds like a contradiction to me.

Same here. I watched it several years ago and I concluded that she concluded nothing.