Should I be worried about radium?

[AndyHull]

On 2/3/2019 at 9:08 AM, Nucejoe said:

A chemical bond between two atoms A and B, gets formed when oribital electrons of atom A, take a tour and orbit around nuclei  B as well, a new molecule AB with it's own specific chemical properties is formed, which can then enter consequent chemical interaction, so radioactive nuclei gets in cycles the same as non-radioactive ones.

This means radioactive nuclei get in our drinking water as easy as  non-radioactive ones and get in vegetation, dairy, meat ,wool and cotton , including our body.  

Once a radioactive source gets inside our body, it will continue with the job on chemical interaction,  it will come it contact with other chemicals in us including the acid our stomach spreads on it and the products of stomach chemical pot, there a new story develpoes, if it gets absorbed and gets in our blood system among others, it may spend long times circulating through the system or go to a cell to get burnt, our cell provide oxygen to burn the food and get energy from it and some heat, this is how the heat in our body is generated, We are a thermodynamic body.

If the nuclei get in subsytems that dont throw it out, blood circulation system for one, it can spend years within our body and generously distribute radiation through out us. 

Radiations emitted by nuclear reaction are of several orders of magnitude higher enrgy compared to atomic reactions and can easily break weaker chemical bond cauing undesired new bond, such undesired bond cause a change in programming of the molecule or cells, among numerous defence mechanisms our body may deploy, is to store all such disorederly cell in one place and wrap tissues aroumd them to keep them contained in company of otherwise rejected cells ( cancerous tumors).  

If you don,t stop me here and don,t go to the next topic,  within an hour I will have got to the dangerous parts of this story. 

 Joe

 

All of the above is true, however we have a built in repair mechanism that mainly takes care of all of this damage, other wise we would rapidly be destroyed by all of the natural radiation around us, including ultra violet radiation, natural and man made sources of nuclear radiation, xrays from medical, industrial and even, natural sources. Solar activity, etc. etc.

By and large, all of these things have the potential to kill us, and, arguably, slowly do so over the course of our lives, however the degree to which they damage us, is largely dependent on the level of exposure.

So absorbing a little radon from the granite worktop in the kitchen, or the remaining nuclear pollution from the atomic tests of the 60s and 70s, or from Chernobyl, or the Windscale fire (google it).. or whatever is not going to do us in any day soon.

Statistically it might, but in reality, we are more likely to get run over by a bus, or fall down the stairs and break our neck, or electrocute ourselves with the toaster, or smoke or drink or over-eat our way to an untimely end than we are to kill ourselves with one or two watch dials. Having said that, as has been stated before, don't lick the dial, and don't stick your fingers in the electricity socket, if you do smoke, don't exhale etc.  and you should be relatively safe (well maybe not the last one).  

Edited February 4, 2019 by AndyHull

[Nucejoe]

Hi Andy,   We have considerable control over sheilding from the source , providing we can identify it's location and the type, yet tend to regard the relative inevitability of exposure  to background radiation as Natural, even harmless while exposure to source is inseparable from background radiation. Exposure we read on a gieger counter understandably exceeds absorption, not so if the source gets inside our body, specially if it stays in.

All I said about redistribution of the source by nature and eco system can be shelved as background radiation.

Human body's defense capabilities however is limited to biological, biochemical, and cleaning, that is our body lacks nuclear defense capabilty,  to identify and interact with nuclear reactions. All it can do is to collect the casualties.

While chemical absorption much depend on what we ate proir or right after eating the source. Nuclear absorption depend on source strength and GPS of the source and the victim. So if the Doctor examining me has a cancerous tumor he dosn,t know about, he is radiating me which he and I ,neither know about.

You are very right comparing risks, degree of voulnerabilties and drawing conclusions.

Joe

 

[saswatch88]

i studied this quite extensively since i use to have cancer and received radiation treatments, and i work on vintage military watches which always contain radium. 

 

Radium can not be absorbed through the skin so touching is not much of a risk as long as you are not licking your fingers or picking your nose after handling a radium dial. but there are two ways to absorb radiation from lume. 

 

1: Ingestion- through this process 80% flushes out from digestion. 20% gets absorbed into the blood and is distributed to organs and eventually will metabolize in the bones like calcium. It will then break down over a period of months in the form of both alpha and beta.

2: Inhalation- 100% absorbed through the lungs then 20% broken down through liver. 80% will metabolize in bone. it will still break down the same way but will take longer because more has been absorbed.

so contrary to popular belief radium will not stay in the body forever, therefor limiting how much and how often you are exposed to it will determine if you are at risk. the story of the radium girls. these women who would sharpen their paint brushes laced with radium with their lips to keep the tips sharp for luming watch dials ingest a whole lot of hot radium per day. at least 100-200 dials per day, then they started realizing that it would glow so they thought it would be cool to use it as make up. and not all of these women ended up with cancer. so short answer is a definite NO! do not worry. just use gloves and a mask if you feel like you want to be careful. and DONT lick the dial LOL

Edited February 5, 2019 by saswatch88

[Ripped]

Just finished watching the video on watch hand re lume and I just wondered, is it better to remove the old, possibly radium, lume off the dial or to paint over it

 

Thanks andy

[rduckwor]

If the age/make of watch indicates to you that it is Radium-lumed, be careful removing itand avoid inhalation of ingestion of the materiel.

 

Good Luck,

RMD

[jdm]

Just to inform fully on the health dangers, Radium assumption must be sizeable and continous to be dangerous. Nothing happens with the occasional manipulation on a single set. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radium

[AndyHull]

I thought it worth waking up this dead thread, just to let you all know, if you want to potentially add to the low level radioactive waste in your work area, there is an interesting lot on fleabay...

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Box-with-Luminous-Powder-Watch-Hands-Watchmakers-Watch-Tools/264582467029?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D40733%26meid%3Ddb39ea03d137414683bb1f1dc365c8f6%26pid%3D100290%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D153778189660%26itm%3D264582467029%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2060778&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507

Time to crank up the old geiger counter and see what wonders lie in those innocuous looking glass tubes.  Judging by the vintage of it, there is a reasonable chance that you might get some radium or tritium in them. Of course I might be wrong, and it may be jusy plain old boring strontium aluminate.

[WatchMaker]

Interesting!

Just FYI a company called Charles Montandon used to produce various watch repair tools and either mark their tools "Chs. Montandon" or "CAM" ... your ebay 'magic powders' have the latter. Let us know what the Geiger counter reveals!

 

[AndyHull]

If you have been following this discussion on radioactive lume, you might find this interesting.
 

 

Something to bear in mind, most "radioactive" watches are mildly hazardous, if the lume particulate is allowed to escape in to the environment which is why the majority of watches produced today do not contain any radioactive material.

There are a few exceptions that have tritium tubes, but they are mainly intended for military or dive use. 

The doses in normal use from wearing an old radium, Promethium or tritium lumed watch are almost too small to measure, however the devices in this video are actually a genuine radiation risk, all be it a relatively low one.

If, on the other hand, you are looking for something to calibrate your Geiger counter with, then you might like this ebay search -> https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=Negative+Ion+powder&_sop=15&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=Negative+Ion+&_sacat=0

Buy at your own risk of course.

The one I found most concerning was this.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pack-of-4-Energy-Armor-Negative-Ion-Sports-Hair-Bands-Providing-Natures-Ions/251469259674?epid=1388443313&hash=item3a8cbc639a:g:XK0AAOxyXzxTGcHK

Edited February 19, 2020 by AndyHull

[yankeedog]

wear nitrile gloves and a dust mask if it makes you feel better , and don't lick the dial. I do know that way back before radio activity was understood, factory workers who applied radium lume had many health problems brought about by sharpening the brush in their mouths.  it also has a very long half life, even though the lume is spent it is still radio active.treat it with respect.

[AndyHull]

One further point. That watch dial looks fairly recent, probably 60s or 70s however it only says Swiss Made
Generally if the dial did contain radioactive material it would be tritium, which as far as I recall is only a relatively low level beta emitter.

BUT

The if my estimate of the age of the dial is correct, then the dial would then generally say

T - Swiss Made - T

Where the T stands for Tritium. This has been a requirement in the Swiss watch industry since the 1960s

I suspect therefore your dial and hands are Zinc Sulphide lumed, which is almost completely radologically inert, and not a particularly effective lume.

There is an interesting article on lume here -> http://www.kronometric.org/article/lume/#4.0

[TKL]

Hello, just looking for a little bit of advice.
I have an old watch that I have purchased, I would like to repair a problem it has with the stem not staying in.
It has tritium hands and hour markers that are approximately 30 years old, would it be safe to remove the hands to replace the movement?

[nickelsilver]

Tritium is safe, especially that old. Radium, even if not glowing anymore, is not safe, and you should be careful.

A friend of mine did a watch where the radium paint shattered out of the hands when he took them off; he got a Geiger counter a few weeks later and it was still getting readings on his his bench.

[TKL]

Thank you for the info nickelsilver, very much appreciated.

[Nucejoe]

I concur with Nickelsilver.

Ocean water contains tritium where healthy marine life goes on. We get a dose with every fish in the dish.  No worries, safe.

[TKL]

Thank you Nucejoe, so pleased that it's safe to operate on. Thought it best to ask before attempting, it's a old Avro military watch so best be careful with it.

[firebynight]

On 6/18/2020 at 1:39 AM, Nucejoe said:

I am, I mean a nuclear Engineer and can assure you, a repairman doesn't intake  any worrisome dose of radioactive material, unless you decide to have a radioactive Omlet. 

Alpha is the nucleus of Neon and absorbs electrons first chance 

, so it only travels like 5 cm in air.

I would keep radioactive luminants out of childerens reach. 

Most modern luminants are not made of radioactive material.

And not practical to protect yourself from background eletromagnetic radiation unless you wear protective clothing made out of materials that shield you from gamma or beta. 

so, No need to spend money on geiger counter. 

 

I went on an ill-advised shopping spree on eBay last year because i was very interested in some early 1900s watches. And only after they arrived did I find out about radium.

 

I bought a Geiger counted and found most of what I bought to be quite reactive. I thought the concern with working with radium was accidental inhalation of radium particles into the lungs? Is that something I don't need to worry about as much?

Any thoughts about how to "clean" off the radium safely -- I assume outside?

I've left all that material sealed up in a metal container facing a lead block since I took those readings... 

 

[jdm]

1 hour ago, firebynight said:

I thought the concern with working with radium was accidental inhalation of radium particles into the lungs?

Yes as in working in a factory for many years or using it as make-up as the poor "radium girls" did.

Quote

Is that something I don't need to worry about as much? Any thoughts about how to "clean" off the radium safely -- I assume outside?

Worried buyers like periodically show up having absorbed already a detectable amount of paranoia. There is no way one can get sick/affected/slightly glowed by handling an old set of hands. If you don't believe that search medical journals on the matter -  radium is a carcinogen but quantity and length of exposure do matter.

Edited September 9, 2020 by jdm

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, firebynight said:

1900s watches. And only after they arrived did I find out about radium.

you don't have to have ancient watches to have radium. I was looking at a hand assortments these are brand-new hands on pieces of paper so each of the hands are Nice and separate notice that some of the hands which I assume have radium have actually darkened the paper behind them. But the brand-new hands that obviously have been around for a while.

1 hour ago, firebynight said:

Any thoughts about how to "clean" off the radium safely -- I assume outside?

the best approach would be to not clean up your radium. Think of radium as a sleeping Tiger it would be best to keep it sleeping. If you start to clean it usually require chemicals solutions rubber gloves you going to end up with a lot of radium spread all over the place and it's still radium. It'd be just best if you left it alone.

5 minutes ago, jdm said:

Threads like this periodically pop up with a detectable amount of paranoia. There is no way one can get sick by handling an old set of hands. If you don't believe me search medical journals on the matter -  radium is a carcinogen but quantity and length of exposure do matter.

I guess a better question would be not so much for watchmakers handling units because there is a conceivability when putting the hand on having her face so close maybe you breathe in a particle. But what about the consumer? Are there any documented cases of someone wearing a wristwatch and getting cancer? Think of all the years we had watches with radium hands that are still out there with radium how many cases of cancer?

Or I was trying to think what would give us the best exposure to radium to try the experiment not really? Dollar watches especially those with glow-in-the-dark hands that would probably be the most radioactive thing you would have because the hands of the physically be bigger lots a radium and you're probably carrying it in your pockets. So how many cases of cancer from that is there anything documented at all?

maybe ignorance is good if you don't know their radioactive then you don't have anything to worry about. But if you'd like to worry I have some a link.. if you look at the link the watch on the left isn't that a pocket watch with a really big hands? But maybe we got an answer from the link? Notice they're not concerned about you carrying the pocketwatch in your pockets that are not concerned about wearing it on the wrist there only concerned about the other effect of having radium or specifically exposure to radon

https://www.kingston.ac.uk/news/article/2068/15-jun-2018--second-world-warera-wristwatches-could-pose-cancer-risk-due-to-radon-exposure-according-to/

this link is interesting in that a point out the evils of radioactive materials especially those people who look their paintbrushes but you get to the bottom of the page and? As long as you leave your radium stuff alone and don't poke at it or don't try to clean it up yourself your fine. So they don't seem to be upset about wearing a radium watch in an article where they're concerned about radioactive stuff.

I guess if you're really worried about your radioactive hands put them somewhere safe otherwise don't worry about it but definitely do not try to clean it up yourself maybe can find a modern replacement

https://www.epa.gov/radtown/radioactivity-antiques

 

 

 

 

[jdm]

20 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Are there any documented cases of someone wearing a wristwatch and getting cancer?

Apparently there are not. I have attached the study that you mentioned, which contains a lot of measurements and concludes:

Quote

Our research has confirmed that radium dial watches individually are a modest health risk to wearers. 

If there were documented clinical cases these would have been mentioned in there, or in some other in bibliography.

Crockett_Robin_E_2012_Radium_dial_watches_a_potentially_hazardous_legacy.docx.pdf

Edited September 9, 2020 by jdm

[AndyHull]

22 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Are there any documented cases of someone wearing a wristwatch and getting cancer?

Given the relatively low dose it causes, even over a lifetime of wearing it, and given the large number of other radiation sources, it would be almost impossible to prove that a watch had given any one individual cancer.

Statistically though you could estimate on the balance of probability the likely hood of it doing so.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, AndyHull said:

Statistically though you could estimate on the balance of probability the likely hood of it doing so.

unfortunately that's the problem with a lot of things we don't always have a clear understanding of what causes certain things one the smoking gun isn't enough to show cause for why somebody got cancer or not. It was also my compromise of avoiding seeing radiation was bad while giving helpful links.

 

But probably is a wild guess wearing a wristwatch with radiation on your wrist probably isn't that bad overall. But those pocket watches in your pockets not the best place to have radiation. Then for all the people that play with the radioactive material insist on cleaning it off. Or re-looming those hands especially a few of the old kits.I actually have a kit that is labeled radio and yes it is radioactive I was surprised I even have what's a much newer for putting stuff on hands. The slightly previous generation of hands stuff was wax with the loom in the wax you'd heated up and did flow into the hand. Before the modern stuff with the super powders that are not radioactive they mix up with some kind of our initial act or something. So the previous wax stuff I thought was all new enough but one of my kits of wax is also radioactive.

Probably the rule should be don't go out of your way to molest the radium hands and dial and you probably will be okay.

[AndyHull]

33 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Probably the rule should be don't go out of your way to molest the radium hands and dial and you probably will be okay.

Yup. Don't eat the stuff, dispose of it carefully, wear gloves and wash your hands. You should be just fine.

You probably got more exposure from the last banana you ate than you did from wearing a lumed watch for years, which is my excuse to share one of my favourite radiation related graphics once more.

https://xkcd.com/radiation/

[mzinski]

This conversation speaks positively to this forum! I asked a radiation question a couple years ago on Watchuseek only to get weird disclaimers from the staff. 

It nice to read open, honest opinions on this subject. Thank you! 

[Nucejoe]

True statistics is out there, How many watches were made in the said era, how many people bought and wore them, how many got cancer.