Help finding lathe collets

[quantieme]

Hi all, I have just acquired this lathe and as far as I can see there is no name on it but the problem is it only came with one collet and I cannot seem to find any that are suitable. The collet thread diameter is 5.50 mm and the thread pitch is coming up as imperial 40g 1/8th “ (3.175mm) so does anyone know of suitable collets that would fit. Thankyou.

[Geo]

Here's a link that might help you:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/collets/

[StuartBaker104]

1 hour ago, Geo said:

Here's a link that might help you:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/collets/

Yes, that table is reproduced in DeCarle’s book. Looks like quantieme has picked up one of those ubiquitous 6.5mm lathes .

Good look finding collets. None on eBay right now, but PennyFarthing tools may be able to help.

[measuretwice]

I don't think its a 6mm.....if the threaded section is 5.5 the body looks like 8 .   There are not many listed collets close to those dimensions that are 8mm.  There is the hopkins #3, but were they made Geneva style?  A mystery lathe - nothing stamped on the bend ends?  what part of the planet are you on/did it come from?   It looks like a Geneva style?  Its also an interesting tail stock, lever action but no gimbal - it looks like nothing can pass through the tailstock?  I also don't understand the thread spec 40g 1/8th ", whats the "g", what the 1/8?   A few more shots of the lathe might help identify it. 

Hell should have a special place reserved for those clods who separate a lathe from its tooling and accessories.  I  think finding collets will be difficult,  but who knows, you may get surprised on ebay one day.

Edited October 14, 2018 by measuretwice

[Mark]

What is the OD of the main shaft (not the threaded portion) it looks unusually large in comparison to the thread.

It may be possible it can support 8mm collets in which case, you can just use a different draw bar. A universal drawbar may be the best bet - I have one from with a standard 8mm thread on one end and a WW on the other. The handle is adjustable along it's length and so will work in many configurations.

I believe I purchased it from Sincere Clocks on eBay.

Could be worth a look if the dimensions suit?

[quantieme]

On 10/14/2018 at 3:44 PM, measuretwice said:

I don't think its a 6mm.....if the threaded section is 5.5 the body looks like 8 .   There are not many listed collets close to those dimensions that are 8mm.  There is the hopkins #3, but were they made Geneva style?  A mystery lathe - nothing stamped on the bend ends?  what part of the planet are you on/did it come from?   It looks like a Geneva style?  Its also an interesting tail stock, lever action but no gimbal - it looks like nothing can pass through the tailstock?  I also don't understand the thread spec 40g 1/8th ", whats the "g", what the 1/8?   A few more shots of the lathe might help identify it. 

Hell should have a special place reserved for those clods who separate a lathe from its tooling and accessories.  I  think finding collets will be difficult,  but who knows, you may get surprised on ebay one day.

I purchased it on good old eBay, it was on there for about 3 months being constantly relisted  and reduced in price. It started at £500 and I got it for £250 in the end but I did wonder if I would have trouble getting collets, perhaps that’s why nobody else was interested. Did I pay to much as there are no collets.? The g on the thread measurement I believe refers to constant thread diameter and the 1/8th is the pitch of the thread as measured on my whitworth gauge.

[quantieme]

On 10/14/2018 at 4:17 PM, Mark said:

What is the OD of the main shaft (not the threaded portion) it looks unusually large in comparison to the thread.

It may be possible it can support 8mm collets in which case, you can just use a different draw bar. A universal drawbar may be the best bet - I have one from with a standard 8mm thread on one end and a WW on the other. The handle is adjustable along it's length and so will work in many configurations.

I believe I purchased it from Sincere Clocks on eBay.

Could be worth a look if the dimensions suit?

Hi Mark it is 7.9 mm which I suppose is as good as 8 mm. So I will get a universal drawer bar and 8 mm collets and I should be in business then. Thankyou 

[measuretwice]

46 minutes ago, quantieme said:

 Did I pay to much as there are no collets.? The g on the thread measurement I believe refers to constant thread diameter and the 1/8th is the pitch of the thread as measured on my whitworth gauge.

I think you did ok and if Mark's idea works it'll be a big win, getting one with slide rest,  even if the lathe wasn't that great for lack of collets, is probably worth the price.

I had to google, I've never seen G used.  Apparently it is a British Pipe Thread term referring to a constant diameter pipe thread (most of course are tapered).  Pitch is 1/tpi so if its 40 tpi, pitch = .025", i.e. pitch of 1/8 = 8 threads per inch which is coarse, think lathe leadscrew

I hope you find out the maker, its a mystery to me.  The tailstock lock mechanism seems unique, at least I can't recall seeing one

Edited October 15, 2018 by measuretwice

[quantieme]

4 minutes ago, measuretwice said:

I think you did ok and if Mark's idea works it'll be a big win, getting one with slide rest,  even of the lathe wasn't that great for lack of collets, is probably worth the price.

I had to google, I've never seen G used.  Apparently it is a British Pipe Thread term referring to a constant diameter pipe thread (most of course are tapered).  Pitch is 1/tpi so if its 40 tpi, pitch = .025", i.e. pitch of 1/8 = 8 threads per inch which is coarse, think lathe leadscrew

I hope find out the maker, its a mystery to me, I've not seen a tailstock lock mechanism quite like that.

I’ve never seen that tailstock type before either and I’ve been looking for a couple of years constantly on eBay at lathes, lathes I saw either had the motor missing or no slide and were to dear,  this one seemed a nice little set up and was complete and if Marks idea works I will be well happy. 

[measuretwice]

1 hour ago, quantieme said:

r and the 1/8th is the pitch of the thread as measured on my whitworth gauge

 

ok, I see whats going on.  You used a thread pitch gauge that showed it 40 tpi .  You can have a forty tpi thread of any diameter you want to make (in your case its 5.5mm), BUT the gauge you had was Whitworth and the standard for Whitworth for a 1/8" dia thread IS 40 tpi.   i.e. a 1/8" diameter whitworth fastener will be 40 tpi and the leaf of Whitworth gauge assumes if you have 40 tpi dia is 1/8".  btw its not a Whitworth thread but the gauge worked well to identify the pitch so mission accomplished (Whitworth is 55 degrees with rounded corners vs metric or imperial standard threads which are 60).  Clear as mud? 

moot with a new set of collets and matching drawbar but I was wondering where the 1/8 came from

Edited October 15, 2018 by measuretwice

[StuartBaker104]

RDG tools sells an 8mm drawbar that has a thread to fit Boley collets, and a few accessories to go with it.

Worth just checking the cone angle on the headstock is a reasonable match before you go ahead

[rodabod]

That tailstock is actually a sensitive drilling attachment. Probably worth around £100. And the cross-slide is probably worth £150 - £200 alone.

I find that most 8mm collets are interchangeable. You'll have to suck it and see. Don't bother buying them here or there: just get yourself a decent looking set. If you are planning on making clock parts or tool parts then consider getting some larger sizes too (5mm+).

[praezis]

The 40g is used in Germany. g for "Gang" means tpi.

What is the diameter of the lathe bed, 25 mm?

Frank

[quantieme]

16 hours ago, measuretwice said:

 

ok, I see whats going on.  You used a thread pitch gauge that showed it 40 tpi .  You can have a forty tpi thread of any diameter you want to make (in your case its 5.5mm), BUT the gauge you had was Whitworth and the standard for Whitworth for a 1/8" dia thread IS 40 tpi.   i.e. a 1/8" diameter whitworth fastener will be 40 tpi and the leaf of Whitworth gauge assumes if you have 40 tpi dia is 1/8".  btw its not a Whitworth thread but the gauge worked well to identify the pitch so mission accomplished (Whitworth is 55 degrees with rounded corners vs metric or imperial standard threads which are 60).  Clear as mud? 

moot with a new set of collets and matching drawbar but I was wondering where the 1/8 came from

The 1/8th is what is marked on my whitworth gauge and is a perfect thread match closest match in my metric gauge is 0.7 mm but doesn’t quite fit.

[quantieme]

1 hour ago, praezis said:

The 40g is used in Germany. g for "Gang" means tpi.

What is the diameter of the lathe bed, 25 mm?

Frank

Bed dia is 20mm

[quantieme]

8 hours ago, StuartBaker104 said:

RDG tools sells an 8mm drawbar that has a thread to fit Boley collets, and a few accessories to go with it.

Worth just checking the cone angle on the headstock is a reasonable match before you go ahead

Thanks I will check it out

[quantieme]

6 hours ago, rodabod said:

That tailstock is actually a sensitive drilling attachment. Probably worth around £100. And the cross-slide is probably worth £150 - £200 alone.

I find that most 8mm collets are interchangeable. You'll have to suck it and see. Don't bother buying them here or there: just get yourself a decent looking set. If you are planning on making clock parts or tool parts then consider getting some larger sizes too (5mm+).

thanks for that info, its nice to know i bought something decent apart from no tooling.

[measuretwice]

1 hour ago, quantieme said:

The 1/8th is what is marked on my whitworth gauge and is a perfect thread match closest match in my metric gauge is 0.7 mm but doesn’t quite fit.

right, because a standard whitworth thread is 1/8" diameter x 40 TPI so the gauge leaf is stamped as such, because its a Whitworth gauge .  The 1/8" doesn't mean anything to your thread because its not Whitworth (its clearly not 1/8" dia.), it just so happened your thread was the same TPI as one of the leaves on your Whitworth gauge so it was useful in identifying the TPI.   Threads are basically described as a having a pitch and dia, - you got a good thread description by using the gauge for the pitch (40 tpi) and a caliper for the OD (5.5mm)

Edited October 16, 2018 by measuretwice

[measuretwice]

2 hours ago, praezis said:

The 40g is used in Germany. g for "Gang" means tpi.

good to know,

Quote

What is the diameter of the lathe bed, 25 mm?

Were you thinking East German made?   I've read their Boley knock offs were larger diameter beds

Edited October 16, 2018 by measuretwice

[praezis]

1 hour ago, measuretwice said:

Were you thinking East German made?   I've read their Boley knock offs were larger diameter beds

Exactly!

[quantieme]

14 hours ago, StuartBaker104 said:

RDG tools sells an 8mm drawbar that has a thread to fit Boley collets, and a few accessories to go with it.

Worth just checking the cone angle on the headstock is a reasonable match before you go ahead

The rdg drawbar is 150 mm my existing drawbar is 55 mm in length so even with their sleeve I think it will still be to long and they do not give the length of the sleeve. I have a larger engineering lathe and I think I might try and make my own 8 mm drawbar if I can’t find anything suitable rather than waste my money.

[quantieme]

On 10/16/2018 at 12:20 AM, measuretwice said:

 

ok, I see whats going on.  You used a thread pitch gauge that showed it 40 tpi .  You can have a forty tpi thread of any diameter you want to make (in your case its 5.5mm), BUT the gauge you had was Whitworth and the standard for Whitworth for a 1/8" dia thread IS 40 tpi.   i.e. a 1/8" diameter whitworth fastener will be 40 tpi and the leaf of Whitworth gauge assumes if you have 40 tpi dia is 1/8".  btw its not a Whitworth thread but the gauge worked well to identify the pitch so mission accomplished (Whitworth is 55 degrees with rounded corners vs metric or imperial standard threads which are 60).  Clear as mud? 

moot with a new set of collets and matching drawbar but I was wondering where the 1/8 came from

i dont want to appear stupid but if it is not a whitworth thread then what is it, is it metric, imperial? if that was a normal bolt and i wanted to order one i would have used ny gauges as i did and then ordered a replacement whitworth thread because that guage said it was. how would you identify what type it actually is or does it not matter as long as you identify the same thread pitch on a replacement (i think i see what you are saying) but i would like to know for my own education.

[measuretwice]

3 hours ago, quantieme said:

i dont want to appear stupid but if it is not a whitworth thread then what is it, is it metric, imperial? if that was a normal bolt and i wanted to order one i would have used ny gauges as i did and then ordered a replacement whitworth thread because that guage said it was. how would you identify what type it actually is or does it not matter as long as you identify the same thread pitch on a replacement (i think i see what you are saying) but i would like to know for my own education.

Happy to explain and you're at no risk of appearing stupid - none of us were born knowing this stuff. 

Forget about whitworth, metric etc for sec,  they are just convention.  Start with what defines a thread.   Its a helical shaped groove and  Its defining properties are 1) its pitch 2) its diameter and 3) its thread form.   Pitch is the distance between crests, diameter is the diameter and form is the shape of the groove.    There is more like direction, tapers on pipe threads, multistart threads, class of fit etc but just worry about those  main three for now.

A thread is a rather useless thing unless it properly mates with another.   We can single point a thread of any pitch, diameter and form (and sometimes we need to), however since the whole point of a thread is to mate with something,  the majority of threads we encounter today are done to some standard.  The standard defines the three things; pitch, diameter and thread form.   So if one plant makes the tap and other makes the bolt, the bolt fits the tapped hole.

A 1/4" National fine thread is a 1/4" major diameter, a pitch of 28 tpi (actually that is the thread count, but in the vernacular its called the pitch as one is function of other: thread pitch - 1/thread count) and a form that is 60 degrees.  An M8 - 1.0 is an 8mm major diameter, pitch of 1mm (distance between crests) and 60 degree form.   There are many different standards, maybe hundreds, but all it is is convention, a standard defining those three things, pitch, dia and form.

There is no law that if I make a product it has to follow convention.  Too bad perhaps for lathe collets, one standard size would have been nice.  The maker of your lathe made the thread 40 tpi and 5.5mm OD, likely not to any convention (they did that back in the early days, each lathe maker coming up with their own collets).  Their collets fit their drawbar, all they thought necessary.   More recently made stuff will almost for sure be to some standard (there are dozens maybe hundreds of standards), but it doesn't have to be to a standard....and the odds of an odd thread increase when you go back in time.  What is it? Could well be a hybrid never seen before or again.  All we know for sure is it has the three defining characteristics: a pitch diameter and form.

Where does Whitworth and your gauge come into it?  Whitworth is just one of hundreds of standards - a convention of diameter, pitch and thread form usually in a series.  Unified National Coarse,  Unified National Fine, Metric, Acme, BA, etc.    One of the threads in the Whitworth series is 1/8" diameter x 40 tpi.  The thread form for Whitworth is 55 degrees with highly rounded crests and valleys.  All just convention.  What your gauge actually measured was 40tpi pitch.  For example, put your gauge against a #6 UNF bolt, which is also 40 tpi,and it will fit like it did the collet.  But doesn't make the #6 screw a Whitworth, its still and UNF with a different diameter and slightly different thread form (55 vs 60 degrees, at 40tpi that might be visible with a loupe, ie the 55 gauge not perfectly fitting a 60 degree thread)

SO....a thread standard like Whitworth is defined (basically) by three things diameter, pitch and form.  Your gauge measures one of these tpi (or pitch).  Your collet happens to have the same pitch, 40 tpi as a 40tpi x 1/8" Whitworth, but this is the extent of it, they just have the same pitch.  For your collet to be a Whitworth thread (which its not) it would have also have the same diameter (for 40 tpi W = 1/8") and thread form.  Its like if you had a set of Mack truck colour paint chips, and you spotted a BMW the exact same colour....the paint chips let you identify the colour (or the pitch of 40tpi) but it doesn't mean its a Mack truck.

Ask away if not clear

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by measuretwice

[StuartBaker104]

Thanks measuretwice - I can hear my Grandfather explaining all that to me when I was too young to really understand... but it mostly sank in, along with the awkward convention that a 1/4 whitworth spanner referred to a spanner to fit a standard bolt head found on a 1/4” bolt, not the measurement across the spanner jaws!

 

[quantieme]

On 10/17/2018 at 2:03 PM, measuretwice said:

Happy to explain and you're at no risk of appearing stupid - none of us were born knowing this stuff. 

Forget about whitworth, metric etc for sec,  they are just convention.  Start with what defines a thread.   Its a helical shaped groove and  Its defining properties are 1) its pitch 2) its diameter and 3) its thread form.   Pitch is the distance between crests, diameter is the diameter and form is the shape of the groove.    There is more like direction, tapers on pipe threads, multistart threads, class of fit etc but just worry about those  main three for now.

A thread is a rather useless thing unless it properly mates with another.   We can single point a thread of any pitch, diameter and form (and sometimes we need to), however since the whole point of a thread is to mate with something,  the majority of threads we encounter today are done to some standard.  The standard defines the three things; pitch, diameter and thread form.   So if one plant makes the tap and other makes the bolt, the bolt fits the tapped hole.

A 1/4" National fine thread is a 1/4" major diameter, a pitch of 28 tpi (actually that is the thread count, but in the vernacular its called the pitch as one is function of other: thread pitch - 1/thread count) and a form that is 60 degrees.  An M8 - 1.0 is an 8mm major diameter, pitch of 1mm (distance between crests) and 60 degree form.   There are many different standards, maybe hundreds, but all it is is convention, a standard defining those three things, pitch, dia and form.

There is no law that if I make a product it has to follow convention.  Too bad perhaps for lathe collets, one standard size would have been nice.  The maker of your lathe made the thread 40 tpi and 5.5mm OD, likely not to any convention (they did that back in the early days, each lathe maker coming up with their own collets).  Their collets fit their drawbar, all they thought necessary.   More recently made stuff will almost for sure be to some standard (there are dozens maybe hundreds of standards), but it doesn't have to be to a standard....and the odds of an odd thread increase when you go back in time.  What is it? Could well be a hybrid never seen before or again.  All we know for sure is it has the three defining characteristics: a pitch diameter and form.

Where does Whitworth and your gauge come into it?  Whitworth is just one of hundreds of standards - a convention of diameter, pitch and thread form usually in a series.  Unified National Coarse,  Unified National Fine, Metric, Acme, BA, etc.    One of the threads in the Whitworth series is 1/8" diameter x 40 tpi.  The thread form for Whitworth is 55 degrees with highly rounded crests and valleys.  All just convention.  What your gauge actually measured was 40tpi pitch.  For example, put your gauge against a #6 UNF bolt, which is also 40 tpi,and it will fit like it did the collet.  But doesn't make the #6 screw a Whitworth, its still and UNF with a different diameter and slightly different thread form (55 vs 60 degrees, at 40tpi that might be visible with a loupe, ie the 55 gauge not perfectly fitting a 60 degree thread)

SO....a thread standard like Whitworth is defined (basically) by three things diameter, pitch and form.  Your gauge measures one of these tpi (or pitch).  Your collet happens to have the same pitch, 40 tpi as a 40tpi x 1/8" Whitworth, but this is the extent of it, they just have the same pitch.  For your collet to be a Whitworth thread (which its not) it would have also have the same diameter (for 40 tpi W = 1/8") and thread form.  Its like if you had a set of Mack truck colour paint chips, and you spotted a BMW the exact same colour....the paint chips let you identify the colour (or the pitch of 40tpi) but it doesn't mean its a Mack truck.

Ask away if not clear

 

i now get it, i had to read it about 4 times to get my head round it but i do now understand. thankyou for taking the time to explain it. if only everything in life were simple and and a set standard.