I've ran out of ideas & tricks ...... Help !!

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, Endeavor said:

swap parts

just a reminder swapping parts is only good if the parts are actually identical. Usually escapement parts specifically the pallet fork are specific to the watch.  a lot of this depends upon the age the older the watch more fitting of the parts the less likelihood of interchanging even if the parts book says there identical.

[Endeavor]

@mikepilk: Thanks for following with interest. Unfortunately I don't have any tips for you as I literally ran out of idea's & tricks.

@JohnR725; Yes thanks, I took your advice onboard. But if the other 503 movement runs fine, by changing out part for part with this movement (keeping track of which part belongs to which movement) it may, or may not, reveal the problem area(s). For sure it won't be a permanent swap if the other movement runs fine. As far as I can see I've done all I could, so something else has to be thought of or I've to admit defeat on this movement .......

[mikepilk]

43 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

it would really be best if you started a new question with your watch problem. While problems may seem to be similar it really works best in the discussion if we discuss each watch separately. Because each watch is a separate watch with separate problems conditions etc.

Hi John. I plan to do that if I don't have any more ideas. First I want to have a good close look at the pallet fork in action - something I always struggle to do - getting just the correct magnification, lighting and angle.

[JohnR725]

33 minutes ago, Endeavor said:

Yes thanks, I took your advice onboard. But if the other 503 movement runs fine, by changing out part for part with this movement (keeping track of which part belongs to which movement) it may, or may not, reveal the problem area(s). For sure it won't be a permanent swap if the other movement runs fine. As far as I can see I've done all I could, so something else has to be thought of or I've to admit defeat on this movement

I am going to list out some random thoughts

for my curiosity if the other movement is running fine why don't you try swapping out mainspring barrel?

the problem with discussion like this is too many things going on. The fantasy is to have one problem work on the one problem and not work on lots of problems simultaneously that may or may not be a problem.

then timing software as you showed above if you time off the wrong part of the waveform the results are different. Basically all of our troubleshooting currently is based on that software and if it's not right you end up chasing your tail. It's not just the timing software I've had watches at work where the amplitude is way better than what the timing machine thinks it is it's because the timing machine was having issues picking up off the waveform. Which is what sometimes happens with really old pocket watches sometimes.

Then I would still like to see the raw waveform from the software for this watch.

so looking at the waveform one side still looks a little rough the other looks better. The rough side typically is one side of the escapement. Like even not having enough lubrication on the pallet stone on that side could cause. It's where just putting a little more escapement lubrication on the stone the fixes that if it's a lubrication issue. Then everyone's listed all the other things above hopefully or even the roller jewel the roller jewel and the fork on that side can cause issues. And that is providing the software is triggering correctly and it's not a software issue.

Sine wave effect uneven power through the gear train that fluctuates we give you a sine wave like that. this is where a time plot feature is really nice versus the regular timing results. Time plots will show things like that.

New old stock what exactly does that mean? there's a whole bunch of scenarios of what that can and cannot mean perhaps. Like for instance in the final quality control they decided there was an issue it was held back nobody got around to fixing the issue. Or the factory just went out of business and they never got sold. Both watches will look identical one will run the other won't and both are new old stock. It's a common thing in the quality control the factory toehold watches back to send them farther back in the assembly line Somebody check to make sure their functional before sending them out again

 

[Nucejoe]

13 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I've been following this with interest, as I have an Omega cal 613 with  similar problems - everything looks good and runs freely when tested alone, but when assembled  the amplitude won't go above 190 deg . 

 

 

Hi, are you sure of pivots, not bent, no flattened or chipped off pivot tip. How do you check for those? I normally keep several movements as parts for calibers in my collection and try another balance or other parts I suspect. A balance may seem to turn freely when repairman provides energy, but not with the enrgy supplied by the fork. A bridge may get warpped, residual pretension, damaged pinion, in my book every part and step of reassembly requires testing.

Regards

[Endeavor]

@Nucejoe: With all respect for your willingness to help @mikepilk, but as JohnR725 already said, best is to open a new thread. As you said yourself, this thread, with only one movement under discussion, has already become very lengthy.

@JohnR725, thanks again for taking the time to list your random thoughts. I'll try to tackle them one-by-one and report back

Edited September 12, 2018 by Endeavor

[JohnR725]

One of the ways to look at learning watch repair is like learning to become a doctor. Go to school read books and then practice lots of practicing. This also means that each one of our watches is like a doctor's patient is unique. Symptoms can be the same may be the cause is the same but each watch is unique its background history timing machine results how and why it got to whatever condition it's in is unique which is why it should be a unique discussion.

 

 

[rodabod]

One thing you maybe didn't mention, @Endeavor is if the motion works are installed? I think at this stage it would be a good idea to take them out of the equation.

[Nucejoe]

17 minutes ago, Endeavor said:

@Nucejoe: With all respect for your willingness to help @mikepilk, but as JohnR725 already said, best is to open a new thread. As you said yourself, this thread, with only one movement under discussion, has already become very lengthy.

@JohnR725, thanks again for taking the time to list your random thoughts. I'll try to tackle them one-by-one and report back

Yes, lenghty threads are not appealing to join in, in the midle , one feels allianated not knowing all said and done, unless specificaly needs learning the points. Considering the oddness of the problem, quick fault finding  seems only by chance.

I too vote for new thread and lots of patience.

Regards

 

[rodabod]

16 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I've been following this with interest, as I have an Omega cal 613 with  similar problems - everything looks good and runs freely when tested alone, but when assembled  the amplitude won't go above 190 deg . 

 

 

Mike, make sure the jewels and pivots (aspecially at the fast end of the train) are extremely clean as these later Omegas have very fine pivots with less torque to drive them than older movements.

And as the others suggest, maybe start another thread.

[Endeavor]

1 hour ago, rodabod said:

One thing you maybe didn't mention, @Endeavor is if the motion works are installed? I think at this stage it would be a good idea to take them out of the equation.

Yes, it was mentioned, waaaay back , that all the test were and are done without cannon pinion or anything attached to the center wheel or train.

@JohnR725; I dropped in the other m/spring barrel (good idea), but that didn't seem to do the trick. I had a go with the software and "printing" out graphs. Hopefully it includes the raw waveform data you liked to see? The data below is with the 2nd m/spring barrel, everything else left unchanged.

As for the number of ticks&tocks in the scope mode; the movement has 18.000 bph = 5 bps. = 1/5 of a second per tick or tock. The software sweep setting allows for 1/5, 1/2.5 or 1 sec sweeps. I took for DU first the 1/2.5 sec sweep and subsequent the 1 sec sweeps, followed by what the timegrapher makes out of the input (obviously I left the movement untouched in that particular position).

Dial UP: 1/2.5 sweep

Dial UP; 1 sec sweep

Dial Down:

Crown Up: I later adjusted the threshold level, as the picture generated by the threshold level shown in the scope mode below was totally unusable; still, like the pervious times, not a clean graph.

Crown down:

Oddly enough, Crown Down seems to give the cleanest signal and the best performing graph, ignoring the daily rate ..... In the Crown Down position the fork is facing upwards, the jewels are facing downwards.

Also note that the amplitude with the 2nd m/spring barrel installed hasn't changed noticeably

It may well be that there is a problem with the fork / roller jewel. The roller jewel seems with 10x magnification okay and firm in place. I have no knowledge about, or how to check the jewel / fork interaction.......

If you can pull any information out of the graphs above, or like to see different sweep settings or graphs, please let me know ...

 

 

Edited September 12, 2018 by Endeavor

[Endeavor]

Something went wrong with the Crown Down raw data; for clarity, here the CD graphs again;

[JohnR725]

to understand what I'm looking for at least as far as the raw waveform goes I swiped an image off of his website.

so I'm way way past my bedtime and the ability to produce legible responses rapidly declining soil see what I can do hopefully it will be legible?

So let's look at the basics first in order for us to help proper diagnosis we have to have proper results from the timing machine or the timing software or the timing whatever. So the oscilloscope wasn't exactly what I asked for but is actually extremely helpful. So I swiped two of your images combined together in one attached below. I circled where there may be problems and I drew straight lines where it may be okay I'm not sure and I'm guessing because this is a really quiet watch that the software is just struggling entire pickup everything is just having problems. But if it looks like you're triggering off more or less where you're supposed to be notice your graphical display looks decent. If you start triggering off the wrong part of the waveform graphical display looks like crap the diagnostics they go for why do I have a craft be graphical display isn't necessarily going to be helpful because we may be diagnosing off faulty information.

Then I'm not entirely sure that the amplitude is correct even if it's getting a reasonably decent graphical display because it's hard to tell if there's enough of a proper pickup for the machine to get what it needs off the waveform?

So where it looks really nice graphically the rate in the beat are probably correct everything else is probably not. So positional timing is an issue because were not getting a good pickup we won't get a good diagnostic without a good pickup which we already grasp.

so here's a test for you if the amplitude is really this bad and I assume the watches fully wound up? With a note here when timing a fully wound watch you'd let it run 15 to 30 minutes roughly in other words you normally don't time a watch wound up tight. Who needs a little bit a sampling time. So if this is a fully wound up watch an amplitude looks as bad as it does is this watch still running at the end of 24 hour's? Because I'm not sure your amplitude is right based on the timing machine software and if it still running it 24 hours it indicates it's probably not right.

 

 

 

 

[rodabod]

@Endeavor, have you used the pallets from the other movement? It could be an issue with the safety action of the lever.

[Endeavor]

@rodabod; Yes, I've changed out the escape wheel for the 2nd, then later added the 2nd pallet fork to it ...... no suc6. But as JohnR725 said, changing components is not necessarily a good idea if they are specifically chosen for that movement. Having said that, as soon as the 2nd movement is cleaned, and hopefully running fine, I'll still go ahead and swap one-by-one, keeping close track on what part belongs to which movement.

@JohnR725: Yes, your writings were still legible  So far the movement ran during the last two nights. It never had a chance to do more because each time I threw a spanner in it. I'll let it run for 24 hrs, see what happens. Yes, to watch was fully wound, minus the 1/4 - 1/2hr compulsory waiting time ....... an old Indian trick I learned from you, way back in previous sessions

While the movement is (hopefully) doing its ticking-test for the next 24 hrs, JohnR725 can have his sleep and I can start working on the second movement and sort out the raw data/ pick-up issues.

[Endeavor]

The sun doesn't get much brighter .......

I noticed already a trail of crudely marks on this 2nd movement leading to the keyless works. All the rest seemed "untouched", until now !

Once I started on the balance assembly I noticed straight away that I wasn't the first one to "have-a-look-at-it". Clear to see are marks on the roller and the balance wheel;

Most likely somebody had a "go-at-it". Since all the oil was dried out, probably a long time ago. This possibility was included in all the "N.O.S." scenarios which JohnR725 wrote down ......

Also a clear screw-driver mark from holding the balance bridge down (I use a wooden peg);

Not sure whether garden- or kitchen-tools were used ??

Anyway, pegged the staff pivots and bridge-jewel, oiled the cap-stone and assembled the whole lot. Curious if this balance would make a difference in the first movement, I swapped it out.

The balance was like a Frisbee wobbling against a gale-force storm........

I guess it's about time to write the seller an email !

Edited September 12, 2018 by Endeavor

[Nucejoe]

      

Regards

 

[Nucejoe]

Hi , keep us posted, if you will please. When you get back to the first movement.

Regards

[Endeavor]

Well, a balance swap, which I hoped could reveal some clues, is not going to work anymore ...... Not sure about the status of the 501 balance and whether it's a fit at all? Perhaps all these three watches were complete "N.O.S"-limes to start with? Awaiting a reply of the seller...

Edited September 12, 2018 by Endeavor

[Nucejoe]

• Seller , manufacturer,  maker,  faker.. 

Lets make a movement out of it, meet you at the drawing board.

Jungle out there.

 

[Nucejoe]

At this point my guess is, faulty, short staff pivot( balance bridge side). Though one may suspect long staff generally.

Regards 

 

[Endeavor]

Even though the problems aren't solved, these watches are forcing me to dive into the theoretical side of the inner watch workings, something I haven't done and got away with it ..... untill now.

JohnR725 has been so kind to provide me with learning / study materials, at the moment mainly revolving around the lever-escapement, the sounds it makes, the timegrapher sound pick up, its interpretation of it and / or the self manual interpretation of the raw data. Once I fully understand the theory, I'll start posting more information & graphs and then see if we can spot the problems.

A few things have happened since my last post;

- The seller has given me a full refund and cleared his eBay shop; no longer any items for sale ! (?).

- For manual calculation of the amplitude I needed the correct lifting angle. I assumed about 42 degrees, but it turns out that the majority of Durowes movements have 56 degrees, some even 62 degrees. I haven't found the specific lifting angle fro the Durowe 501 & 503 movements, but I'll take 56 degrees since that seems to be Durowes "standard". The amplitude on the timegrapher has therefor increased from say 120 to about 160 degrees ..... a help in the right direction, but still far from impressive.

Here is the first raw-data graph of the tick & tock sounds picked up by the microphone of the timegrapher.

There are 5 sounds made by an lever-escapement, but depending on the movement (quality) and quality of the signal, some may not be picked up or go coincide with another sound, indistinguishable so to speak .

So may sound 2&3 and sound 4&5 go together, resulting in 3x distinguishable sounds.

As said, I've to catch up and try to learn the interpretation of the raw sounds, but below is the first graph I managed to produce of the 503 movement, Dial UP. I'm currently not knowledgeable enough to determine how many of the 5 escapement sounds are distinguishable in the graph below or whether there are sounds which are not supposed to be there? 

Perhaps the knowledgeable under us can already spot some trouble ?

For me at least, it's getting very interesting and very educative !!

 

 

Edited September 16, 2018 by Endeavor

[JohnR725]

I thought so we can understand better about what the raw format looks like perhaps better to start with a running watch. So this is a ETA 6498 which I'm sure I've service to the zero idea when.

three different amplitudes fully wound up 250° the classic pattern of what appear to be only three sounds. Then dropping the amplitude 160° to roughly corresponds to the amplitude that Endeavor has with his watch and notice it still doesn't quite resemble what were seeing above? We can start to see that there is more than just three sounds but you have to really look for them. Then at 110° thing is start to really separate.

So I get the suspicion that the 160° that Endeavor has may be not quite right. Then the wavy microphone effect he has the uneven timekeeping is still either magnetism or the classic uneven power through the gear train.

[Endeavor]

@JohnR725; Very interesting. In one the documentation I received from you there is a explanation / picture that if the Amplitude is low, the signal gets drawn out and/or separate. Visually it is clear to see that the amplitude is indeed low.

I took the mainspring of the 3rd movement and ran it between thumb nail-pointing finger, in the opposite coil direction. I basically straighten the "tail" and about 80% of the spring length. The idea being to see if main-spring would develop some more resistance being coiled up and therefor produce additional power. I also demagnetized the whole movement again, twice this time.

Here three graphs with the "new" spring;

Dial UP:

Crown Down:

Crown UP:

As can been seen is that the amplitude has improved slightly, so the spring power seems to be one of the variables in the "trouble"-equation.

Next, the "wave" is still clearly present, despite multiple demagnetization.

Looking at the graphs above, next to 5 distinguishable dots, there are "dots" which could be noise, ghost-signals or sounds originating from the movement. With a bit of imagination I can count up to 6 or 7 dots. Having the bare movement on the piezo-element, therefor resonant-sounds inside a watch case are excluded, it may well be that the "additional" sound dots originate from issues with the pallet fork horns or dart ??;

I'll strip the movement again, give it another clean, complete re-pegging, cleaning all the escape parts with a fiber brush and give it a part-for-part- & complete-demagnetization. Check if I can discover any possible tell-tails with the roller impulse jewel, the pallet fork horns & dart ......

 

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Endeavor

[rodabod]

@Endeavor do you have a phone camera with "slo-mo" function? That's an easy way to determine exact balance amplitude.