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Endeavor

I've ran out of ideas & tricks ...... Help !!

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Hello Gents;

I ran out of ideas & tricks.

The movement on my desk is a 1950's New Old Stock LACO 503 with 16 jewels. I came as a none-runner, but the movement seemed okay.

Laco-2.thumb.jpg.e53748756f3d2e0c3711912b312b5db4.jpg

I stripped it, cleaned it and assembled it; it ran, but barely. (See walkthrough:https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/9705-servicing-laco-503-501/

Assuming old oil was the culprit; I stripped it again and stepped up my pegging game. Pegged every jewel and pivot hole. I even pegged the tiny balance-pivot-jewels under the cap-stones. Pegged every wheel-pivot, but not those thin balance-staff pivots: that was too risky for me.

Checked all wheel teeth, pivots and jewels, couldn't find anything wrong with them. Inspected the pallet-fork jewels and impulse jewel; all seem fine.

Installed the balance on the main plate and it oscillated freely. I checked the position of the impulse jewel to the banking pins; spot on, right in the center. Hairspring nice flat, horizontal and concentric.

Installed the pallet fork on the main-plate and it rocket freely on its own weight. Installed the balance wheel to check the engagement with the pallet fork and a little pulse against the fork jewels sent the balance-wheel off, oscillated freely, rocking the pallet fork backwards and forward. Removed both parts again.

Installed the spring barrel, wheel train and bridges. The slightest touch to the barrel teeth and the escape wheel took off. Installed pallet-fork and with a slight tension on the spring, the pallet fork needed only a slight encouragement to "jump" over.

Assuming that this movement was good when it left the factory, one would expect that this movement would now run nicely ....... not so. Not at all !!

It still has a huge beat error (but perhaps the timegrapher picks up another "resonant"-sound?) , a low amplitude (assuming a 42 degrees lift angle) and it even stopped on me a few times ......

727796511_laco3.PNG.4795ddb4bc37ec91925ce01540cee7eb.PNG

I've no idea what to check or what to do next ..... !!??? :(

If this movement was a "lime" when it left the factory, what can it be?? Given the fact the the wheel-train runs smooth, the pallet-fork rocks freely on its own weight, the balance-wheel oscillates freely; why does it run so poor?? (there is no cannon-pinion on the other side to interfere)

Any help or tips are very welcome ........

 

Edited by Endeavor

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Looking at your original walkthrough, isn't your mainspring a bit fatigued/set looking?
I hope someone with more experience can advise if this is or isn't the case

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@JBerry: Thanks! Perhaps, but winding it, it certainly shows that it can put quite some power on the train.

Forget to mention that each part has been demagnetized before assembly.

Edited by Endeavor

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Are you sure it has a lift angle of 42 degrees, as this would throw off your amplitude reading?

Although it may have enough power to initially drive the train, if it is a tired spring then it would never give a good amplitude reading. Admittedly, the spring looks alright. I know it's a bit obvious but, have you oiled the palette fork jewel as this will increase the amplitude? Also, did you oil the palette fork arbour pivots? as I never do.

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I would say the problem is going to be from the pallets to the balance wheel. Have you checked the impulse pin, balance staff, what is the finish on the pallet forks like? To me that m/spring looks alright, it looks fine un-wound.

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@Jon; Thanks ;) No, the 42 degrees is a guesstimate. I can see on the balance wheel that 120 degrees is about right, certainly no more. Yes, the pallet fork jewels are oiled and no, I also never oil the pallet-fork pivots .....

@oldhippy Thank you as well ;) I indeed also assume that it has to be from the pallets to the balance wheel. My strongest eye-loupe is 10x. I've checked and brushed (fiber-brush) each and ever teeth of the escape wheel . I checked the impulse-pin and can't see any abnormalities. The pallet-fork jewels look 100% and are in their right places, nice square and straight. The pivots of the balance-staff look fine too. The balance (and hairspring) moves nicely horizontal, no wobble or so. Perhaps the end-shake, that is a thought which just came up while typing....

It has run now for a few hours straight. I'll leave it running and strip it again tomorrow. Perhaps I can then discover anything I haven't discovered so far after my thorough inspection(s).  The train runs very smooth, so it has to be somewhere from the escape up to the balance ......

Edited by Endeavor

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Setting the lift angle on a Timographer makes only the slightest of differences to the readings. Looking at your readings it is indicating something is amiss with the escape. By any chance is one of the pallet stones loose or are the pivots on the pallet folk OK.

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In the badge of three watches, two of these watches had the 16-jewels LACO 503 movement. I just stripped the 2nd movement and it needs the same treatment; cleaning, pegging, pegging and some more pegging. Once that's done, I'm going to assemble that movement and see how it performs. If Okay, I can start changing out part for part and see if I can find the problem part.

Before doing so, I would like to try to increase the balance end-shake and see if that makes a difference?

However, just now, I need to take a brake ....... my neck hurts and the eye-loupe seems to have grown stuck to my eye-socket :biggrin:

Thanks for your tips so far !!

Edited by Endeavor

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Well, well ........ the movement stopped again. I had a close look with my 10x eye-loupe and it seemed that one pallet-jewel is stuck on top of an escapement teeth. I removed the balance carefully and luckily the fork stayed in the stuck position, enabling me to take some pictures.

l-28.thumb.jpg.34a9a862e603cafee87a780a2c5b56c2.jpg

Here an enlargement of the escape wheel / pallet jewel section. The red arrow is pointing towards where the pallet jewel seems to be stuck on top of the teeth. Also note that the fork is only halve way between the banking pins.

l-29.jpg.818bb820aa42d83cda746a0ed1e3ce89.jpg

How & why is my next investigation ....... it may however explain a lot of the problems encountered ...... perhaps Clockboy is on the right spot?

Not an easy fault to spot when things are in motion ! :huh:

I'll of course check if the jewels are tight in the fork .... (BTW; if not, what to do exactly? I've never done that before!)

Will report back on my findings ......

 

Edited by Endeavor

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So far nothing;

- the escape wheel teeth seem perfectly in line and the axial play of the wheel is minimal (I was thinking of the possibility that a jewel had shifted position).

- the jewels in the pallet fork are in line with the fork, that is to say in the same horizontal plain. Both the jewels are at the back of their settings and seem firmly positioned; no movement. One can see the shellac in the corners and it seems undamaged and firm. Nothing broken, all jewel surfaces are flat and edges are sharp.

- The pallet fork pivots seem straight, the fork and "wings" are straight and square up; no abnormalities.

Somehow the question keeps spinning through my head if this movement could have been a lime from the factory; hence still "NOS" after all those years ..... (somebody found a box in a corner .....)?

Tomorrow, if time, I was thinking of cleaning up the escape wheel and pallet fork of the other 503 movement and change one for one out, see what happens.

Any other suggestions on how to proceed are very welcome !

Edited by Endeavor

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beat error versus amplitude? What's interesting for beat error is on the timing machine it increases as amplitude decreases so super low amplitude like you're showing the beat error will always be much bigger. Things basically get magnified when the amplitude is low. So you need to get the amplitude up higher like 200 would be nice otherwise everything is go look really bad.

then I noticed you demagnetized when the watch was disassembled why don't you try it when it's assembled. magnetism can cause a sine wave effect on the timing print out. The other thing that can do that is power fluctuations through the gear train.

lubrication of the escapement? One of the lines looks a bit rough that could be the result of lack of lubrication on one of the pallet stones. Also comes up if the roller jewel is loose.

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26 minutes ago, Endeavor said:

Tomorrow, if time, I was thinking of cleaning up the escape wheel and pallet fork of the other 503 movement and change one for one out, see what happens.

way too many things going on with this watch to follow the subject. For the picture where you think the pallet stone is on top of the escape wheel was it actually on top of the escape wheel? Because later on in your discussion it makes it sound like everything is fine?

then parts swapping isn't always the best idea. It depends upon when these watches were made as to whether the pallet fork is fit to the escapement or whether the pallet forks are generic. In modern watches you can swap all the parts with no real issues. But if this fork has been fit for the escapement swapping with another fork might not be in your best interest. Unless you want to adjust the escapement which you may have to do anyway. I assume you did check the escapement like how much lock etc.

then the software you using the full version has interesting feature found at the link below. it be interesting to see one of these plots for your watch

http://www.watchoscope.com/manual.html#raw

 

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@JohnR725 & @oldhippy; thank you for you contributions ;)

Lots of new information to take in and it is good to take a break, or better to sleep about it :sleep:

I'll try to demagnetize the whole movement as well. I thought demagnetizing each part individually would yield the best results, but if practice shows that demagnetization of the whole movement can be beneficial, I'll certainly give it a try and add the idea to my arsenal; thank you.

Sorry if my write up caused confusion (English is unfortunately not my native language), but as good as I could observe, the pallet jewel was stuck on top of an escape wheel teeth. Both pallet stones were lubricated.

I tried to mark the stuck teeth, but as soon as my marker touched the wheel, and even though the m/spring tension was released, it jumped ahead and I lost sight of that particular teeth.

As far as checking the escapement lock etc; I'm afraid to admit that I'm trying to catch up with the problems presented and the know-how to solve them. This is the first time that I do encounter problems with escape - pallet of this magnitude. I do agree that to solve problems, best is to take it step by step and not to change too many parameters. I'll investigate, as good as I can, the current escape wheel & pallet in more depth. I'm all ears to your advice on how to proceed and I'm keen to learn.....

Also the full version of the watch-o-scope has many features to offer, many of which I haven't explored yet. As soon as I get the movement to run, I'll try some of the features you pointed out.

As for my idea that this movement was a lime from the factory; that idea doesn't make sense. If the movement wasn't good, they wouldn't have cased it in a golden case, instead just chucked the movement.

I have to say that I'm glad to be on this forum and to receive so much in-depth expertise. This watch has become a very interesting challenge and a great learning opportunity.....

I'm all ears and hope to hear & learn more .....

Edited by Endeavor

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1 hour ago, clockboy said:

You have identified the error area. It must be the pallet stone is loose and therefore too high, a escape wheel tooth has been bent or the banking pins are the style that can be adjusted with an eccentric

usually on the newer watches the banking pins are fixed and this looks like it has fixed banking pins. But they did at one time make tools for bending the banking pins which you don't want to do unless you understand why you're doing this.

Why didn't you take everything out except the pallet fork and escape wheel so you can really see these well and manually rotate the escape wheel to look at how it meshes with the pallet fork. You can check the end shake at the same time you might have to adjust the end shake of one or the other. That is once you've identified the problem adjusting things without identifying the problem usually generates a new problem that'll have to be dealt with in addition to the original problem whatever that may be.

in any case putting in the parts where you perceive the problem is without anything else makes it easier to see them. They put the balance wheel in and see how everything compares with that.

new old stock is an interesting term? Are these assembled running watches or these just watches assembled out of parts? In the factory were these the problem movements or the movements destined to go out? then a course was this just a bad design in the first place which is why they didn't sell at all?

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I’m curious as to how this plays out? Like a fantastic novel. Could the pallet fork bridge or the escape wheel bridge be warped or bent?


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Today I had not much time time, but assembled just the escape wheel and pallet fork on the main-plate. The escape wheel is held in place by the m/plate & the wheel train bridge and the pallet fork is held in place by the m/plate & pallet bridge. During my initial observations it seems that the escape wheel and pallet fork are not in the same horizontal plain. It seems that the escape wheel is lower. It is hard to confirm that for 100%, since the DOF (Depth of field) of a 10x magnify glass is very short and therefore both items can hardly been seen in "one go". Next to that, it seems that the entry pallet (No.11), compared to the escape wheel horizontal plain, is higher positioned than the exit pallet (No.12). I can see a section of the impulse face of the exit pallet (No.12) above and below an escape wheel teeth, whereas I can't see any of the entry pallet (No.11) impulse face below an escape wheel, only a part above. It seems that the pallet fork, compared to the horizontal plain of the escape wheel, is slightly tilted; higher on the entry pallet, lower on the exit pallet. It was also the entry pallet (No.11) which was stuck on top of an escape wheel teeth.

According to the schematic below, it seems that the escape wheel and fork has to be in the same horizontal plain (?).

escapement.omega.jpg.efb51359b5ebd696fb97c9b21a67bbfe.jpg

As I was trying to explain before, I could not discover any abnormalities to the individual components studying them separately.

Tomorrow I will try to confirm my observation. Perhaps I'll managed to take a picture using a small aperture (high aperture-number which will yield a greater DOF) to confirm my observations.

Another thing I noticed is that the escape wheel jewel in the main plate, compared to the pallet fork jewel and the 4th wheel jewel, which are both flush with the surface of the main plate, is slightly below the surface the main plate. The opposite is true for the escape wheel jewel in the wheel train bridge, here the escape wheel jewel protrudes slightly above the "inside" of the bridge surface. The slight differences in positioning of both jewels effectively lowers the horizontal plain of the escape wheel  .......... (I hope that I explained this clear enough ?)

This could explain my observation of the differences in horizontal plains. However, that both escape wheel jewels slightly differ position in bridge & m/plate surface(s), compared to the surrounding jewels, seems to me a bit too much of a coincident if it wasn't designed that way (?). Still, it's a bit odd that all the other surrounding jewels are flush with the "inside" surfaces, but both escape wheel jewels are not (?).

Anyway, hopefully tomorrow I'll have more time. Also time to compare my preliminary findings with this movement and compare them with other 503 movement.

Indeed, this movement may give another dimension to "New Old Stock". For sure, it's not "newly" assembled out of old parts; one can not fake 70 years dried out oil ........ or can you?

I'll keep you posted ......... ;)

Edited by Endeavor

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So, the escapement is mislocking. You can observe the action of the escapement by placing some tissue paper underneath the pallet to slow its action. You must understand the action of the lever escapement in order to troubleshoot it.

Check The condition of the pallets and the escape wheel (any teeth bent or mis-shaped?) and also check the end-shake and side-shakes of the pallets and escape wheel.

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@rodabod; thank you for your advice and the tissue paper tip !

As for the lever escapement workings; I think that I posted this YT-video link before. One has to pause the video at 30 & at 31 seconds to get the terminology, and perhaps re-wind a few times as there is a lot of information being given:

Perhaps there are better video's out there? I like these type of video's as I'm more a visual learner ...... a picture says to me more than a 1000 words :)

Perhaps "mislocking" is the right terminology & conclusion, but if there is such a misalignment between the pallet fork and the escape wheel, causing the entry pallet to slide on top of an escapement wheel teeth, I'm not sure whether that can be called "mislocking"? Your "tissue-paper" trick may reveal the problem? I'll take it that the escape wheel is then powered again by the train & the m/spring?

As written, so far I could not discover any abnormalities of the pallet fork, nor the escape wheel (teeth). I'll follow your advice and check tomorrow the end-shake & side-shake of both items. If excessive, that could contribute to my problem too. Thanks ;)

Edited by Endeavor

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13 hours ago, Endeavor said:

Perhaps "mislocking" is the right terminology & conclusion, but if there is such a misalignment between the pallet fork and the escape wheel, causing the entry pallet to slide on top of an escapement wheel teeth, I'm not sure whether that can be called "mislocking"? Your "tissue-paper" trick may reveal the problem? I'll take it that the escape wheel is then powered again by the train & the m/spring?

As written, so far I could not discover any abnormalities of the pallet fork, nor the escape wheel (teeth). I'll follow your advice and check tomorrow the end-shake & side-shake of both items. If excessive, that could contribute to my problem too. Thanks ;)

It's hard to know how your pallet stone ended up on top of one of the escape wheel teeth, but I think it would be fair to describe it as "mis-locking". I suppose it could have happened during impulse, but I still think the same term applies.

There is no way that a pallet stone should ever be able to sit on top of an escape wheel tooth. Are you sure that this happened? It's hard to tell from a 2D photo.

Inserting a fold of tissue paper underneath the pallet fork slows the action to help you to inspect what is happening. You should wind the mainsping just enough for the lever to be able to snap back-and-forth, and then use a find oiler or a needle to move the fork from side to side. You need to know what to look for as you cycle through the 15 (or so) teeth.

While locked, there should be "draw" which is a small amount of recoil that gives safe locking by drawing the pallet stone deeper into the escape wheel teeth. The pallet fork will resist moving very slightly, and will return to its original position  if it does not unlock (and will be "drawn" back in).

When the pallet fork is moved far enough for the escape wheel tooth to escape, you should observe impulse as the escape wheel tooth ramps along the pallet stone. The impulse is actually divided in two stages, but it's not worth mentioning here as it would be very difficult to observe, and doesn't really matter for your purpose.

When the escape wheel tooth eventually drops off the pallet stone, the escape wheel is then free to rotate by a certain angle. This is called "drop" and is wasted energy, but it is necessary in order to allow freedom of movement in the escapement. If yoiu reduce drop too far then the escapement will jam (mislock). Higher grade movements tend to have less measurable drop. There are two drop angle measurements; "inside drop" and "outside drop". Inside drop is the angle of rotation of the escape wheel when it lands on the exit pallet (the locking face is "inside" the pallets). Outside drop is the angle it rotates when it drops off the exit pallet and lands on the entry pallet locking face (whidh is on the "outside" of the pallets). This drawing may help show where to look to see the angle of rotation where it says "drop". Look at the size of this gap which is currently showing the "outside drop". This distance should look similar to the "inside drop" :

 

a177_lever_escapement.gif

 

As a very simple test though, I would also just check the shakes on both the pallets and escape wheel and make sure that the pallet stones can never reach above or below the escape wheel teeth.

 

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53 minutes ago, rodabod said:

It's hard to know how your pallet stone ended up on top of one of the escape wheel teeth, but I think it would be fair to describe it as "mis-locking". I suppose it could have happened during impulse, but I still think the same term applies.

There is no way that a pallet stone should ever be able to sit on top of an escape wheel tooth. Are you sure that this happened? It's hard to tell from a 2D photo.

Inserting a fold of tissue paper underneath the pallet fork slows the action to help you to inspect what is happening. You should wind the mainsping just enough for the lever to be able to snap back-and-forth, and then use a find oiler or a needle to move the fork from side to side. You need to know what to look for as you cycle through the 15 (or so) teeth.

While locked, there should be "draw" which is a small amount of recoil that gives safe locking by drawing the pallet stone deeper into the escape wheel teeth. The pallet fork will resist moving very slightly, and will return to its original position  if it does not unlock (and will be "drawn" back in).

When the pallet fork is moved far enough for the escape wheel tooth to escape, you should observe impulse as the escape wheel tooth ramps along the pallet stone. The impulse is actually divided in two stages, but it's not worth mentioning here as it would be very difficult to observe, and doesn't really matter for your purpose.

When the escape wheel tooth eventually drops off the pallet stone, the escape wheel is then free to rotate by a certain angle. This is called "drop" and is wasted energy, but it is necessary in order to allow freedom of movement in the escapement. If yoiu reduce drop too far then the escapement will jam (mislock). Higher grade movements tend to have less measurable drop. There are two drop angle measurements; "inside drop" and "outside drop". Inside drop is the angle of rotation of the escape wheel when it lands on the exit pallet (the locking face is "inside" the pallets). Outside drop is the angle it rotates when it drops off the exit pallet and lands on the entry pallet locking face (whidh is on the "outside" of the pallets). This drawing may help show where to look to see the angle of rotation where it says "drop". Look at the size of this gap which is currently showing the "outside drop". This distance should look similar to the "inside drop" :

 

a177_lever_escapement.gif

 

As a very simple test though, I would also just check the shakes on both the pallets and escape wheel and make sure that the pallet stones can never reach above or below the escape wheel teeth.

 

I was thinking the same. I would say the only way for it to finish on top of a stone is either there is too much play in the pallet pivot or a bent escape tooth. I have encountered too much amplitude and by just fitting the correct strength spring this resolved that issue. I have encountered a damaged escape tooth and this showed clearly on the Timographer. The reading showed a blip in exactly that same period of the readings. 

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@rodabod; Very well explained, thank you !

Even though I'm in the middle of my investigations (having a coffee brake B)), I can report already the following;

I started off trying to take a picture and the best I could come up with is the following, which isn't that great:

Escape.jpg.5c9ffcf6554563530b8fbde33ca2f268.jpg

Even though the entry-pallet is slightly higher and sticks a bit more above the escape-wheel than the exit pallet, closer inspection revealed that there is still "enough" entry-stone left to "cover" the escape wheel teeth surface from top-to-bottom. I also checked the radial- and axial-play of the escape wheel and pallet fork. Both do have some minor (negligible) play and therefore I draw now the conclusion that it is very unlikely that my 2D observation, being that the pallet-stone landed on top of the escape wheel teeth, was a correct one.

Still to see on the picture, to the right of the escape pinion (the darker part just above the escape wheel), is that the horizontal plain to the pallet fork is slightly elevated. However, parallax errors and the short depth-of-field prevents me from making hard conclusions, just plausible observations. I also had a close look at the jewel "setting depth" positions of the second 503 movement and they seem more consistent, i.e all very slightly below their respective "inner" surfaces.

I again checked the escape wheel teeth on a flat steel surface, having the pivot "sunk" through a small hole, but could not discover any abnormalities.

Not having read your well explained escape wheel and pallet action sequence, and not being able to find an obvious cause, I started changing out first the escape wheel and later added the pallet fork of the second 503 movement (lets call them for communication purposes: 2nd escape wheel and 2nd pallet fork); keeping a close eye the whereabouts of the original parts and the replacements, so there is no mix.

Each time the complete movement was, as JohnR725 suggested, demagnetized.

Below what the timegrapher showed with the 2nd escape wheel, and every else left original.

Laco-esc-change.PNG.349d3f282df9345f3e453190913aca28.PNG

Here with the "2nd" escape wheel in combination with the "2nd" pallet fork;

Laco-esc-pallet-change.PNG.1682e6421698cc9e983339005ea65347.PNG

Giving the fact that the "watch-o-scope" setup I have (an old laptop computer and home-made microphone) is far from ideal and consistency is not 100% guaranteed, I can only look at the "trend" and with having both parts changed out, I can't see much of an improvement compared to the first graph with the original escape wheel and pallet fork; which I repeat here  below:

2091325540_laco3.PNG.88302fafaeedb129bec602ad2020c182.PNG

Plan of action;

I was thinking of changing out the pallet bridge for the "2nd" bridge. If no change, I can go back to all the original parts and check the escape wheel / pallet fork action as Rodabod & Clockboy suggested.

I have to see how to proceed from there. Then there is the balance (I checked the impulse jewel, no abnormalities and the jewel sits tight), balance jewels and cap-stones. Of course, there could be a combination of causes too .....

Any other suggestions, based upon the above new information is very welcome. In the next few hours I'll keep checking my computer regularly.........

As a side note: I just can't believe my luck that this all has to happen to me on such a small caliber ........ :notfair::biggrin:

Thanks: Roland.

Edited by Endeavor

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Here the latest graph with the 2nd escape wheel, 2nd pallet fork and 2nd pallet bridge. So now and then it makes a nose-dive. To note is that the regulator, on top of the balance bridge, is, and has been all the time, at full "Fast".

Laco-esc-pallet-bridge-change.PNG.af5530529f5d5763c755b206ec5e7289.PNG

Okay, I will go back to all the original components and start with the escapement test ....

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I have been thinking about this and I think you have two issues. I think the first fault showing as a wavy pattern is caused by inconsistent power coming through to the escape. The second fault is there is something wrong on one side of the escape. See the attachment, although a different machine the same readings analysis applies.

 

Timing-Machine-Charts-.pdf

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