Pocket watch hour and minute hands not working

[AdamC]

Hi, this weekend I’ve stripped down a non-working Tell pocket watch, using the balance from another similar Tell model to repair it. After cleaning, reassembling and oiling, I was overjoyed at my first successful repair when it sprung to life after winding. The watch ran fine but I noticed after 12 hours it had lost about 8 minutes. So having reset to the correct time and adjusting the compass to run faster, I thought no more of it. However, after checking half hour later, the minute and hour hands hadn’t shifted, though the second hand was (still is) moving around the dial fine.

 

Being a newbie, I’m wondering if anybody else has experienced this and might have some advice to the cause. I have already done a partial strip down to check the motion and keyless works and visibly everything seems fine.

 

To give you an idea of the pocket watch arrangement, I have posted some photos below.

 

 

 

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[Chopin]

I think there's an issue with the canon pinion. I'm not familiar with the movement but it definitely has one. Just don't know how it works for this one. I'm thinking that there's a lack of friction...

[AdamC]

p.s., oddly I’ve noticed that the hour and minute hands have began moving after about 30 minutes keeping minute for minute time. It’s almost like some kind of tension has had to work up before the hands have moved. However, if the crown is pulled out to reset to the correct time, the same thing happens - no min/hour hands movement. Confused!!


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[AdamC]

I think there's an issue with the canon pinion. I'm not familiar with the movement but it definitely has one. Just don't know how it works for this one. I'm thinking that there's a lack of friction...

Thanks Chopin. I do have a donor watch so I’ll swap the canon pinion over tomorrow and see if that does the trick. Appreciate your thoughts.


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[MrRoundel]

Dial-washer necessary/missing? In other words, there might be too much space between the hour-wheel and the bottom of the dial, and the hour-wheel and minute/intermediate wheel are losing their mesh.

[oli]

It might just be the photo but it does look like the hour and minute wheels are not meshing correctly on your pic?

if not as said above it could be the cannon pinion which is too loose, and just slips instead of turning with the centre wheel. 

[JohnR725]

It would help for our understanding if we can have a picture of the dial without the hour wheel in place. A lot of times with watches with sweep second hands it changes how the Canon pinion functions. Sometimes there is a offset drive. For instance I've attached a picture one of yours notice I circled a gear? You don't find this with the normal Canon pinion it looks like a drive wheel. Then look at the gear side notice the mainspring barrel driving the center wheel which isn't in the center? The gear looks like it correspondence with the center wheel that's not in the center? So as a guess here Your pinion isn't on the dial side the friction point is somewhere else.

[AdamC]

It would help for our understanding if we can have a picture of the dial without the hour wheel in place. A lot of times with watches with sweep second hands it changes how the Canon pinion functions. Sometimes there is a offset drive. For instance I've attached a picture one of yours notice I circled a gear? You don't find this with the normal Canon pinion it looks like a drive wheel. Then look at the gear side notice the mainspring barrel driving the center wheel which isn't in the center? The gear looks like it correspondence with the center wheel that's not in the center? So as a guess here Your pinion isn't on the dial side the friction point is somewhere else.

That’s a really helpful observation John. I’ll see if I can find a photo without the hour wheel on. I have been monitoring the watch over the past couple of days. The behaviour is weird: set the time to 10 minutes ahead of actual time, press in crown (keyless cog engages with mainspring ratchet wheel, wait 10 minutes while minute hand doesn’t move, then the hand begins moving as normal, keeping time to within 15 minutes per day. I’m no expert but I’m also considering whether the old (original) mainspring is to blame? Explaining why it takes time to build up enough tension to begin turning the wheels once the keyless cog engages after setting the hands? Here’s a view of the opposite side of the centre wheel.



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[JohnR725]

When you're setting the watch do you feel any tension at all? 

Then are you trying to run the watch in the case or out of the case? The reason for asking this is with American pocket watches when the movement is out of the case it goes into setting. The watche is in setting when it tries to run that can be an issue. So American pocket watches some of them have mechanisms to put the watch back in the winding out of the case otherwise you have to put it back in the case so it's in the winding position not in the setting position. Basically the watch can't drive the entire setting mechanism when it's running.

Then technically in your picture you are missing the center wheel as the center wheel in this watch isn't in the center. The center wheel is the wheel next the mainspring barrel.

So it be nice to find where the Canon pinion is and very likely doesn't look like a Canon pinion?

[AdamC]

When you're setting the watch do you feel any tension at all? 
Then are you trying to run the watch in the case or out of the case? The reason for asking this is with American pocket watches when the movement is out of the case it goes into setting. The watche is in setting when it tries to run that can be an issue. So American pocket watches some of them have mechanisms to put the watch back in the winding out of the case otherwise you have to put it back in the case so it's in the winding position not in the setting position. Basically the watch can't drive the entire setting mechanism when it's running.
Then technically in your picture you are missing the center wheel as the center wheel in this watch isn't in the center. The center wheel is the wheel next the mainspring barrel.
So it be nice to find where the Canon pinion is and very likely doesn't look like a Canon pinion?

Thanks again John. Yes, I can feel tension when setting the watch. I tested the general running of the watch outside of the case and all seemed fine. I could operate it in both winding and setting positions without issue. Nothing appeared to change after I cased it regarding the actual running and It wasn’t until the hands were attached that I noticed any problem. I have left it in the case since. As a relative newbie, I’m a little confused about where the cannon pinion might be if not the component I thought it was in the centre. The wheel you’ve ringed in the reposted photo is the only one I had to carefully lever off to disassemble and stake it back on during reassembly, and to be honest it took a little more driving home than I expected. Could be the culprit wheel though.

Thanks,
Adam


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